Detecting that invis

[Tynian]

So, in another thread yesterday, Wish said:

What should be made more difficult, in my opinion, is detection of potential threats.

To which I responded with:


You bring up an interesting point how easy it is to detect threats. Prior to version 3.0, any invis was detectable by any detect invis. There was no concept of invis "power." I'm sure the years have fogged my memory, but PK florished prior to the invis change. Getting a detect was relatively easy. So long as you had a detect and were sufficiently conditioned to whozone every 2.5 seconds (maybe that was just me ), there were few surprises... in theory. In reality, you may forget to whoz, or get distracted by a mob you were fighting, etc., and a PKer could still get the drop on you.

I wonder if the possibility that your detect isn't good enough to detect all threats isn't at least a contributing factor for why people guild sit when a famous killer logs in. You get word they're online -- but will you be able to see them? Maybe. Maybe not. Better recall.

Could it be that from a PK standpoint, the possibility of being undetectable may actually be a hinderance to PKing, that people are more likely than ever not to chance it because they can't see what's coming?

Would it improve the quality and enjoyment of the game if invis were more detectable or less? Or would it make no difference at all?

Obviously, I was in the "like variable invis" camp. Now I'm in the "like variable invis in theory, but undecided in terms of game play" camp. And like Wish, I have (historically) thought that people should be more difficult to detect -- thus the change to invis way back when, and the more recent change to hide, that now works better than ever before.

[Tylin]

The detect-ability matters for people leaving safe. People will log in and know that there are baddies on a few different ways but can't see them. Most common way is restrings. Yes, they are fun to have, but in all honesty, if you are gonna pk, leave the restrings off. They are a -dead- giveaway. Most big people have restrings that can be located easily. Take Piter for example, c loc tagnik, BAM. You know if he's on or not. That's just one off the top of my head, I have a list of the restrings of people who actively chase my following around here somewhere. Anyway to my point, people have a hard time with the things they know are there but can't see. There are other ways like the stats page, etc.

People left safe in the 'old days' because they knew if they had a detect invis, they could whoz and see invis people. People got kills because those people who felt safe would leave, and then trip up because they forgot an alarm, or a whoz, or were just too slow.

[wish]

I actually like the 3x invis over the 2x invis. What I don't like about invis right now is that it really isn't worth very much as a PK tool. Don't get me wrong, it has a lot of other very nice uses, such as getting into and out of aggressive zones, avoiding folks (newbies) when you don't feeling like id'ing, etc.

As a PK tool, however, I do not believe many folks above level 30 rely on it much. There are TS amulets out there aplenty (along with health ammys, but that is a different thread), and a pumped detect invis can easily expose invis. For a level 50 mage like myself, using invis to try to sneak up on someone is pretty much a lesson in futility.

I don't know what has changed. Maybe nothing except the skill of the players. It seems to me that it used to be that getting a god invis for a pk was critical. It seems to me that I could at one point go invis, and really sneak up on someone in a zone, and wait for just the right moment to pk them. It seems to me that I can't do that anymore. Perhaps it's just what I said in another post and I have been around too long to be effective and its time to retire. I don't know. What I do know is that I have pretty much given up on spending time to info a person, find them, and then pk them, because it just never seems worth the effort.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[orpik]

Invis is almost useless for lvl 50 chars to pk as it stands right now. By the time someone is effective lvl 30 they either can see a lvl 30 mage invis (and fli invis) with their own spells or have a TS amulet (or aren't worth killing).

Being able to be invis to your prey is a huge advantage for a pker. I found thor's post interesting as honestly I don't believe many pcs exp with me on even if they can see me. The few who dare are OM's who can obscure me, but even most of them do not. I think people are more likely to exp if they cannot see their prey, IF the news page is changed. How would this work? I mean they would set alarms, phosphate, check magistrate periodically. (all of the ways it used to be done). Use of alarms gives the prey a chance, a smart mage never even allows a pker to get within a zone of him while he is exping.

the problem is with the restricts (though i like having them and do not think they should be reduced below 5 mins), this means people just need to check the news page every 5 minutes and they know if someone is on. If someone is they go to guild and sit, rather than set alarms and bug if someone hits them.

the difference is in the first scenario it is no fun for anyone. In the second scenario it is fun for both the prey and the pker. the pker gets the shot, and the prey if he takes precautions will have no trouble avoiding the pk.

remember in 2x when invis was all or nothing, summon was much more effective. Now you can't just get to the prey's zone, you have to get to the prey before they whoz AND the prey is going to have 500 hps rather than 200 hps since they have to be lvl 30 now. I am not saying this is bad, I'm just saying it makes pking much different.

[Dauthi]

I agree with Orpik and Wish. Finding someone and actually getting to them is almost a waste of time. There use to be a time when not setting alarms while exp'ing ment certain death. Having 200-250hps ment you could get killed by an aff 40 or 50 before you even knew what hit ya. Having invis be harder to detect would be good. maybe go as far as people are detectable within the 5 minute log on restriction. or even go as far back as having to use mok to see if people are on,...

[boromir]

Invis .. or detection thereof is important especially when the target and the pker are different levels or cant see a level 30 mage invis.
for example .. a level 18 mage cant see through a level 30 invis cast on a level 25 cleric
so unless the mage has cast tons of alarms, there is a good chance that target will lose
For those of equal levels or should I say, equal in ablities to see someone invis, the attacker has to become more inventive
and.. because the invis is useless to the attacker , odds are it is also useless to the target as well. So the ability to see invis and invis itself are removed from the pking equation making the pk alot tougher and easier.

[Jashon]

Get rid of pumping. This will make a high level invis more powerful.

Or keep pumping, but let it only affect the time duration of the spell.

[Maeron]

Honestly, a level 30 cleric should be able to see a level 30 mage. Seems like until maybe 28 or 29 Clerc with a huge pump you can't. That seems fair enough.

I think the detection that becomes the issue is the news page. I can see 9 players are on and I only see 7 of them. Well player A is hiding, but hrmm..where's player B. Well, I see an ordained/level 50 evil/etc is on, oh..must be player B, I'll wait till he logs.

[Avarice]

Yeah Maeron stop hiding from me cuz of newspage...it is unfair :(

Seriously tho, the newspage does make it ridiculously easy to avoid a pk if you're just trying to xp. Anytime a threat logged on while I was xp'ing up, i could just hit safe and because of the restrictions on pk I had plenty of time to safely get to guildhall and either sit or log out. Removing newspage would make it easier for pk'ers. As it stands now theres almost no point to getting an FLI invis and going after someone....while I'm not against level 30 invis being less effective vs lower levels a god-invis should be as powerful as it sounds imho.

[Tay]

Was invis re-done? ive noticed i cannot see a 30mage's invis with a 50 ts pump anymore.

[Tynian]

Nope, haven't touched it.