mr tweak

[Seto]

I reacently tested mr with Pol.

I packed 26mr on and it blocked 1 out of the 5 spells that were casted before i died.

we all know 26 of a certain stat is a pretty big number, maybe beef mr up alittle, make it more useful, maybe more sought out for? Because right now it seems to be more useless then Charisma

[jaeden]

I'd have to agree with Seto on this one. For about a week I wore over 30MR in an attempt to see how it would really work against Shamans(A mages' worst nightmare). It didn't.

PostScript: Yes, I know that shamans can only kill mages when they can SEE mages. What's written above is an opinion. Please pay attention to Seto's post more than my opinion. Thank you.

[Tynian]

Well -- I agree that MR isn't a premier stat. On the other hand, MR and SVS are closely enough related that I'm not sure if both are necessary and desired. After all, if I beef MR up too much, then there's little point to SVS.

Thoughts?

[Tay]

bring down svs a tad, bring up mr a smidgeon, you know, balance them out, since now int and wis affects svs as well

[Belsambar]

Svs and mr are, these days 'virtually ineffective' against pc's. But I've had good seuccess with mobs spells being blocked, and/or saved better than pc's.

I'm not sure if really needs any tweaking, but I suppose turning mr up a bit wouldn't hurt. Svs really doesn't need to be turned down MORE, it's easy enough to cast through if you know what you're doing :)

[Pol]

I sort of see SVS and MR as being the spell equivalents of DA and AC respectively - one reduces the chance of being hit, the other reduces the damage taken when hit. In a similar manner to Spell Resistance and Saving Throws in ADnD, I think.

I would consider the two stats to be very dissimilar in both strategy and scope of use. For example, given the new range of damage spells are able to deal, a character with low hp's (a mage, for example) may bulk up on MR to avoid taking any damage at all simply because even saved spell damage can be devastating. Another character with other types of damage reduction (a cleric with sanct/protection or a shaman with absorb/cloak/da) may opt for SVS instead since it's tied to level, WIS, etc.

Both definitely have a place, I think, and are not too similar that only one is needed.

I think 3 changes would make MR yet another valuable stat to have and provide more, and most importantly, desirable and effective, choices:

1. Scale MR such that 20 or so MR is 75% effective vs same level casters, +/- 1% per point of MR vs level. E.g. to resist 3 of 4 spells cast by a caster 10 levels higher than you, you'd need to wear 30 MR. 20 MR would give you 100% protection against a caster 25 levels lower than you, etc.

2. Allow MR to resist both directed AND area-affect spells (and perhaps even spell-like breath weapons).

3. And of course, cap MR at 30 to prevent overly exploiting the stat.

The consequence of these changes would be, I think twofold - not only would it provide another interesting way to cope with spell defense, but also were MR effective against area spells it would open up areas that are normally only *very* rarely explored (vis Jester's Keep, the upper levels of Dragon Tower, etc).

As always, thanks for the consideration!

Pol O'Song

-ps One last question - what was the original intent of MR and how did it get so far off track?

[jaeden]

Well -- I agree that MR isn't a premier stat. On the other hand, MR and SVS are closely enough related that I'm not sure if both are necessary and desired. After all, if I beef MR up too much, then there's little point to SVS.

Thoughts?

Then I'd suggest the removal of MR. If it's not really doing what it was fully intended, why have it? I loved the concept of it, personally, but the player base is so ingrained with SVS that it may be less difficult to remove MR than SVS.

[Seto]

Nah, mr shouldnt be removed at all. It was a great idea to begin with. Just needs a little bit of tweaking to be relivant.

I agree with Pol's suggestions entirely.

MR and SVS does seem to work as AC and DA would. AC is a highly sought out for addition to items, and DA is also a commonly worn stat. Why should MR be any different?

Some class are strickly built for dealing tons of swinging damage, and some are strickly built for tons of spell damage ... If AC and DA both protect against the swinging damage, shouldnt it seem right to have svs paired with MR to defend against the spells side of this?

On the other hand, what is the worst that could happen? People will use MR? some might go all out and put 30mr on, some might just make a small addidtion to thier current sets with the "cross your fingers and hope i block this last spell or i die." I think the downfall of this would also be that helpful spells could be blocked as well? Might also add some balance to the ordeal.

The stat itself is just another option to custemising your character and i see nothing wrong with more options to choose from.

PS: As i do agree with Pol, i also believe his suggestion is alittle TO powerful. No matter how much MR is worn there should always be % chance of a spell landing, seeing only 1 spell can be cast per round. maybe if capped at 30mr, any caster would still have a 5-15% chance of landing a spell depending on level of caster and level of defender. No amount of MR should be able to block 100% of spells.

[Anathema]

I have been trying to think about how to respond, but because I havent really messed with MR Im not sure I can make too many worthwhile suggestions. However, I think Pol's suggestion of having 30 MR block 75% of spells being cast is way too powerful. I think that his suggestion points to the inherant flaw with MR. As I understand it, MR is all or nothing. The problem being that if you block spells too much of the time it will be too powerful and if you dont block them enough then MR is hardly worth wearing. It is a difficult balance that Im not sure has an easy fix.

The other thing I have noticed is that svs does not seem to be as effective as it once was. I think perhaps the best thing would be to beef up svs a bit to make it closer to where it was and get rid of MR. Maybe there is a way to actually combine the two, that if you are wearing a certain amount of svs it acts to actually block spells (and make mr work like svs so all the existing eq isnt wasted?). Alternatively, perhaps make the two work in conjuction, i.e. if you are wearing the requisite amount of svs, the addition of a certain amount of MR will combine to block spells and alone the MR has the impact of svs fractionally (like 1MR = .5 svs).

Again, I havent thought this out, just throwing some suggestions against the wall.

[morgaine]

alright, heres my take on it. MR is just fine the way it is. It always has been "a little something extra". I dont think it is supposed to be a great thing that saves your but in a pk, or helps you down that alimighty shaman cause no ones spells are going to penitrate it. The idea that MR should be capable of blocking even 50% of spells is in my oppinion rediculous. svs tones down dmg spells and can block others, yet depends on the lvl of the character and the level of the opponent...and is something every character has a certain amount of naturally. There are certain races that get natural MR. This is one area where MR is beneficial. The fact that it might stop 1 in 5 spells for a giant, who doesnt get a huge amount of bonuses is a nice benefit to playing the character. I dont actively seek out mr, but if it happens to be combo'd in with something i need i just might wear it for that "once upon a time" that it stopped someones curse or rift or dispel magic. As it stands we have the choice to tune our equiptment in many ways, and although MR isnt a great benefit to our set, either is small HP or mana bonuses. I have gotten away from a battle with exactly 1 hp before...... while wearing two chipped boar tusks... 1 hp wwp's frmo newbie area that are considered worthless, but have saved my life in the past. MR is capable of doing the same.

-Morgaine belle'rose

[Seto]

I do think its ironic seeing that those views/ideas are comming from someone who has the "invincible" armor rating. Id bet money your AC blocks more then 50% of all swings that are attempted on you, from mobs or players alike. Why not give players the chance to do the same with spells?

Im not saying that MR should be incredibly powerful. Im just saying that if i put on a full 30+ set of MR id like to "feel" like its actually helping me, rather then feel like im wearing just a bunch of +mvs items (almost worthless eq).

As i do respects your views Morgaine, id have to disagree.

I view MR as a waste of code as it is now. Either remove it completly and save some room for better randoms, or make it into something people will enjoy using, play with, or even concider building a full set of it.

MR has a lot of pontenial as a good ascet to TFC. I just hate to see something cool go to waste.::down::

[jaeden]

I view MR as a waste of code as it is now. Either remove it completly and save some room for better randoms, or make it into something people will enjoy using, play with, or even concider building a full set of it.

MR has a lot of pontenial as a good ascet to TFC. I just hate to see something cool go to waste.::down::

Why not make MR alter or change spells as well as possibly absorb? If there's no plans to beef it up, atleast give it some creative affects.

[Belsambar]

I'm from some more creative affects....possibly a small random chance at it causing a spell to backfire....

Oh, and Anathema, yes, svs is now less powerful. What would be the point of the newer tune-ups Tynian did, if it just reverted svs back to working like it did before so spells work like crap again? :P

[Anathema]

I'm from some more creative affects....possibly a small random chance at it causing a spell to backfire....

Oh, and Anathema, yes, svs is now less powerful. What would be the point of the newer tune-ups Tynian did, if it just reverted svs back to working like it did before so spells work like crap again? :P

Clearly you didnt read my entire post. At any rate, the purpose would be so that we could again have some differentiation between damage spells. I have a feeling that at some point Tynian will investigate the amount of damage some spells are doing and there will be tweaks anyway. My post clearly contemplates svs working in conjunction with MR to some extent and adding a blocking ability. Increasing the effectivness of svs would also not moot the other changes. Everything is relative.

[Anathema]

Why not make MR alter or change spells as well as possibly absorb? If there's no plans to beef it up, atleast give it some creative affects.

Your post actually gave me an idea. How about the potential for a spell backfiring and redirecting at either the caster, someone in his/her party or a mob in the room? That would spice things up. I would suggest toning the redirect down, however. For instance if my rift would have Annhilated the target, the redirected rift would Disembowl-Evicerate. That would be a cool effect of MR. Obviously this would not be something that happened at a highly consistent level, but the potential would definately alter the dynamics of attacks.

Alternatively, how about if MR did not block the spell, but caused the caster to use additional mana. So for example, I cast rift on someone and I lose 50 mana because of the significant amount of MR the person has. That could be another interesting effect. I am not saying that this would be something that happens everytime, but increased mana costs, backfiring, maybe even some damage to the caster would all make MR far more interesting.

Shuger

[Gwyrdain]

...how about if MR did not block the spell, but caused the caster to use additional mana.

Don't know that I'd back 'em, but both ideas (random redirect and added mana cost) are interesting. A question on the above though... I assume that the game does not keep track of mana for mobs -- is this correct? If true, this idea would only be pertinent for pk scenarios, whereas I would rather encourage ideas that would be applicable to both xp'ing and pk'ing. *shrug*

[Anathema]

Don't know that I'd back 'em, but both ideas (random redirect and added mana cost) are interesting. A question on the above though... I assume that the game does not keep track of mana for mobs -- is this correct? If true, this idea would only be pertinent for pk scenarios, whereas I would rather encourage ideas that would be applicable to both xp'ing and pk'ing. *shrug*


Im not sure. I know when I wrote some zones a long time ago I thought mobs had mana. Perhaps the idea can be expanded to where the person wearing MR actually gains mana from the opponent casting. Regardless, there are lots of things that you wear or use that are more applicable to one aspect of the game than another. For example, ac is far more relevant vs. mobs than PCs. Similarly, luck eq really has the limited use of assisting only when xping AND leveling prime. These are simply considerations you weigh when deciding to wear one type of eq over another. The redirection would also work against mobs...

[Gwyrdain]

Regardless, there are lots of things that you wear or use that are more applicable to one aspect of the game than another.

I don't disagree. I was only trying to convey that the more widespread the appeal/usefulness of the tweak, the more likely it is to be implemented and to have the desired effect (i.e., make mr relevant).

As an aside... were mr to deflect/redirect, drain mana, or add/absorb mana it might need a new name. ;)

[Dauthi]

If MR goes up there would have to be a stat that counters it. Pc or Mob has high AC what do you do? add more HR. PC or mob has high -svs add more int or wis. Same with DA and Dmg. the point being in order to make MR better you would have to have a counter or balance added. I would have no objections to mr blocking a slightly larger % of spells, i just think that high int or wis should in turn lower the chance of that MR working.

[Ratchus]

I actually love the MR idea. I think that it should be tweak to strengthen it a bit. I see SVS and MR as completly different strategies. It is a gamble. Unfortunatly, at the moment it is too big of a gamble due to its weakness. I have also tested it with 30 worn, and found that it let too much through (not that it shouldnt let some though). The theory in my mind is that if I am wearing 30 mr, i dont have much room for other stats so I balance added spell protection with weaker attack and weaker dmg protection.

I would love to see mr tweaked. I think THE MORE TYPES OF eq the more variety the better!. I tire of seeing dmg heads and da heads and svs heads.
keep it up
ratchus

[Seto]

Cool! Lots of great ideas on feedback on the MR tweak idea.

Hopefully it has enough support to get implemented.

::up::