Off-hand

[Anathema]

I am sure this idea will also tick off the usual suspects, but I have contemplated posting this for some time.

Although I disagree with the logic in prohibiting Rangers from using an enchanted weapon in the offhand, I do understand it and it does make sense (I used to view enchant in offhand as ranger enhanced, especially since rangers only have 650 str). What I propose is that rangers be allowed to use magical weapons in the off-hand that do not impact damage. I know its a real advantage to have a second weapon, but rangers basically give up the use of wands, fetishes and staffs in combat unless they are using a program like zmud with fancy aliases. Additionally, the other classes can hold magical items in their offhand or in the alternative use shields that have some pretty nice stats.

I wanted to post this after I saw a 3wis Katana sitting around unused yesterday. Now with the emphasis on other stats, slots are at a premium. I think it would add a lot to game play if rangers could use weapons with various magic aside from damage in their off-hand, especially since this would make random weapons more useful and valuable- not to be tossed aside like they are now.

Alright, I think I can imagine who is going to try to beat up on me for this one.

Shuger

[Thor]

Hmm...I haven't decided, yet, how I feel about this one. I think I could go either way. I was a range/mage/thief as a mortal. Being able to wield two weapons, as you stated, is already a big bonus. I do agree, however, that if ranger are allowed to wield magic weapons in the off-hand it would not be able to affect hr or dmg. There are just too many ways that can be abused to make rangers extremely powerful. I do agree that this would make random weapons much more valuable. I've through away countless random weapons and weapons that have like sanc simply because they were like avg 1 and would be completely useless.

Interesting idea.

[Anathema]

Hmm...I haven't decided, yet, how I feel about this one. I think I could go either way. I was a range/mage/thief as a mortal. Being able to wield two weapons, as you stated, is already a big bonus. I do agree, however, that if ranger are allowed to wield magic weapons in the off-hand it would not be able to affect hr or dmg. There are just too many ways that can be abused to make rangers extremely powerful. I do agree that this would make random weapons much more valuable. I've through away countless random weapons and weapons that have like sanc simply because they were like avg 1 and would be completely useless.

Interesting idea.

Exactly, it would add some more strategy as well. Do you go for the high average weapon or use your offhand for that 5wis item you just found even though its av5?

[Belsambar]

Yeah, items like that katana have po'd me for a while. I'm all for this idea, but unfortunately, I don't think it'll be implemented, much as I love it :/

[pitt]

Currently, random weapons are completely useless, with only 3 exceptions:
* nonmagic katanas
* nonmagic rapiers
* +mana weapons for immortals
(maybe +da for da kits? I don't think anyone does this anymore..?)

Anyway, I'd take the idea even further (and I think I've posted the idea before) and say that random magic weapons should be wieldable offhand AND be enchantable.

I'm fairly sure there is already code in place to tell whether a weapon randomly affects dmg and hr or if it's enchanted - when you info2 somebody, you almost always see them affected by 'enchant weapon' - so presumably it should be easy to check against this when you try to dual wield or enchant such an item, instead of checking for any affect at all.

This should work out ok.. most random weapon types are at least a couple 'avg' dmg points less than the prevalent limiteds, so having a couple extra 'affect' dmg points (if you're lucky enough to find them!) shouldn't throw things out that far. I just think it's a shame to have so many randoms that are so worthless.

Also, the principle could apply to limited weapons also, since so many of those are worthless... though some would have to be toned down, and some others given the 'enchant weapon' flag to prevent abuse... that'd be much more work though.

[Anathema]

Currently, random weapons are completely useless, with only 3 exceptions:
* nonmagic katanas
* nonmagic rapiers
* +mana weapons for immortals
(maybe +da for da kits? I don't think anyone does this anymore..?)

Anyway, I'd take the idea even further (and I think I've posted the idea before) and say that random magic weapons should be wieldable offhand AND be enchantable.

I'm fairly sure there is already code in place to tell whether a weapon randomly affects dmg and hr or if it's enchanted - when you info2 somebody, you almost always see them affected by 'enchant weapon' - so presumably it should be easy to check against this when you try to dual wield or enchant such an item, instead of checking for any affect at all.

This should work out ok.. most random weapon types are at least a couple 'avg' dmg points less than the prevalent limiteds, so having a couple extra 'affect' dmg points (if you're lucky enough to find them!) shouldn't throw things out that far. I just think it's a shame to have so many randoms that are so worthless.

Also, the principle could apply to limited weapons also, since so many of those are worthless... though some would have to be toned down, and some others given the 'enchant weapon' flag to prevent abuse... that'd be much more work though.

Taking my idea a step further... Im going for baby steps here, since I think my idea has an uphill battle, but you raise some good points.

Shuger

[Pol]

I disagree with this idea. One only has two arms so Rangers are limited just like every other class. In fact, Rangers are not as limited as other classes in terms of item selection.

1. Rangers *can* hold fetishes, wands, staves, etc. in their off hand. The difference being they can wield a second weapon where no one else can so they're not limited by any means. Rangers *can* use non-metal (or thuggable if crossed with Thug) shields.

Yes, they give up extra attacks and are not as powerful offensively as a Warrior would be, but they also have significantly more DEX so it becomes a trade off.

2. If the idea is to make random magical weapons more useful, then I think making a Ranger-only solution doesn't do much to actually address the problem. In fact, I'd go so far as to question whether it's a problem at all.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it achieves what you want it to.

Cheers,

Pol O'Song

[Anathema]

I disagree with this idea. One only has two arms so Rangers are limited just like every other class. In fact, Rangers are not as limited as other classes in terms of item selection.

1. Rangers *can* hold fetishes, wands, staves, etc. in their off hand. The difference being they can wield a second weapon where no one else can so they're not limited by any means. Rangers *can* use non-metal (or thuggable if crossed with Thug) shields.

Yes, they give up extra attacks and are not as powerful offensively as a Warrior would be, but they also have significantly more DEX so it becomes a trade off.

2. If the idea is to make random magical weapons more useful, then I think making a Ranger-only solution doesn't do much to actually address the problem. In fact, I'd go so far as to question whether it's a problem at all.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it achieves what you want it to.

Cheers,

Pol O'Song

I see your perspective, but I still think this does add some good gameplay elements and dare I say a little balance with warriors. True rangers with 2 enchants might have had a balance issue. With respect to ranger only concern, right now any metal eq over ac8 is usable only by warriors and clerics and there are not that many single class warriors out there. Basically any randoms over ac 10 are only usable by a particular segment of the population. I guess the point being that improving random use in any way is a positive. I mean no one complains about the big ac randoms. Im not saying its 100% equivolent, Im just pointing out an alternative line of thinking.

Again, my point was not just to increase the usefulness of random weapons. That is part of it...

Actually, if someone can use two weapons, what is the logical reason for them not to be able to use a magical in the off-hand? Seems to me that a decision was made that rangers with 2 enchants were too powerful (again that decision was made before a damage cap), but there doesnt seem to be any other basis for that decision? Since we once had rangers running around with dbl enchants, I dont think it would undo things to simply let them use other, non-damage, weapons...

[Solaron]

I'm just going to comment on the rangers vs. warriors comment: I would choose a well-geared ranger over a well-geared warrior any day. After a certain threshhold, warriors just don't hold a candle to a ranger.

[pitt]

2. If the idea is to make random magical weapons more useful, then I think making a Ranger-only solution doesn't do much to actually address the problem. In fact, I'd go so far as to question whether it's a problem at all.

Making them enchantable is an everybody solution! ::up::

Plus it'd add some more variety to the game.. not everybody would be wielding one of the same 10 or so decent limited weapons like everybody else.

Plus it'd add some more eq trade-off decision making.. do I want the av8 enchantable limited, or am I willing to use the av5 2dex random weapon? Katanas and rapiers could have their randomness settings tweaked to be like dragonscale - pops with weak magic if magical at all - to ensure that these items don't get too out-of-control

[Anathema]

I'm just going to comment on the rangers vs. warriors comment: I would choose a well-geared ranger over a well-geared warrior any day. After a certain threshhold, warriors just don't hold a candle to a ranger.


Frankly Ive heard arguments in support of both positions and I think people are entitled to their opinions. (obviously because people seem to play both of them). I would however like to hear your opinion on the substance of the thread.

[Anathema]

Making them enchantable is an everybody solution! ::up::

Plus it'd add some more variety to the game.. not everybody would be wielding one of the same 10 or so decent limited weapons like everybody else.

Plus it'd add some more eq trade-off decision making.. do I want the av8 enchantable limited, or am I willing to use the av5 2dex random weapon? Katanas and rapiers could have their randomness settings tweaked to be like dragonscale - pops with weak magic if magical at all - to ensure that these items don't get too out-of-control

I really do love your idea pitt, but baby steps;)

[Solaron]

Frankly Ive heard arguments in support of both positions and I think people are entitled to their opinions. (obviously because people seem to play both of them). I would however like to hear your opinion on the substance of the thread.

That is the substance of the thread. I don't think rangers need to wield magical weapons. I do agree that random weapons are pointless as can be right now; I would suggest doing as Pitt mentioned to remedy this. Let magic random weapons be enchanted, tweak what stats pop on random weapons and the ranges they pop with, and go to town.

[Anathema]

That is the substance of the thread. I don't think rangers need to wield magical weapons. I do agree that random weapons are pointless as can be right now; I would suggest doing as Pitt mentioned to remedy this. Let magic random weapons be enchanted, tweak what stats pop on random weapons and the ranges they pop with, and go to town.


So you dont think rangers should be able to use magic weapons in their off-hand because you think that rangers are objectively better than warriors? Is that your point?

Interesting.

Thanks for elaborating to some extent, I appreciate it.

[pitt]

Ah, ye olde bread-and-butter warrior.. maybe they do need a little tweak to match ranger, but that'll be for another thread.

Just to make my position clear, though, I'm all for letting rangers have the magical non-enchanted offhands, too. The nonmagic offhand thing never really made sense to me. And I would have been a ranger if a birdie could!

[Anathema]

Ah, ye olde bread-and-butter warrior.. maybe they do need a little tweak to match ranger, but that'll be for another thread.

Just to make my position clear, though, I'm all for letting rangers have the magical non-enchanted offhands, too. The nonmagic offhand thing never really made sense to me. And I would have been a ranger if a birdie could!

I think he gets that, he was just illustrating the point as a disagreement with me. And I have always wondered why Aarakocrans can't be rangers to be honest... I mean they live in the trees and mountains and would seem to make ideal rangers. Additionally Aaras are like top in Dex, which also happens to be the prime stat for ranger... then again that is certainly for another thread!

Funny thing is, there are tons of people who think rangers are better and tons that think warriors are better. Im not convinced allowing magical offhands without damage would tip that balance. A second enchanted weapon might however... although I havent thought that through. I mean with the damage cap all that would do is allow a ranger to put other types of eq in other slots. It would not result in the wild demo-annhilating rangers of the past...

[pitt]

It could just be the Lanfear effect. It's nice to see her legacy lives on, if only in the shaking of the people scared of rangers ;)

[Arella]

I disagree with this idea. I do not think that rangers should be allowed to use magic weapons that at all in their off hand. If a ranger chooses to use a second weapon they sacrifice a slot to have some stat. The idea works the same with those (generally warriors) who choose to use a two handed weapon, they sacrifice stats for a higher average.

Off the original topic of this thread:
The idea of being able to enchant already magical weapons has some potential although I think it should be capped in some way. Like if you have a level 30 mage (normally a 4/4 enchant) and the weapon is already +5 something I think you should only be able to put a 1/2 enchant on it (total of +8). I disagree with being able to take a weapon that is already +5 then adding another +8 or more to it.

[pitt]

The idea of being able to enchant already magical weapons has some potential although I think it should be capped in some way. Like if you have a level 30 mage (normally a 4/4 enchant) and the weapon is already +5 something I think you should only be able to put a 1/2 enchant on it (total of +8). I disagree with being able to take a weapon that is already +5 then adding another +8 or more to it.
I don't think it should be too easy to make crazy items either, but surely this would be easier accomplished by tweaking the rate and magnitude of random magic on weapons than by messing too much with enchant. Maybe some new 'exotic' random weapon types could have lower averages but a better chance of more random magic affects. There would have to be that *slim* chance of finding something fantastic to make people collect and id random weapons, for fear of passing by something great!