Leveling Made Easier

[JonnyBravo]

I just wanted to see other people's thoughts on this. Personally, I wish leveling were a bit quicker than it is now so as to allow more time for questing, zoning, etc.

[Pol]

Making it "easier" wouldn't really keep the flavor this MUD has developed over the years. This is The Final Challenge. 'Nuff said, I think, as the name says it all.

Well, ok...one or two more things...

The game has been made *very* newbie friendly in the past several years so starting out has become much easier. If you're accustomed to levelling at the same pace past L15 or so as you were in the beginning, I could see how the pace would seem slow. Just keep in mind, it used to be *LOTS* harder at all levels to gain experience.

As for how quickly you level, that's more a function of what mobs you kill, how you gear up for them, how much patience you have, the tactics you use based on your class(es) and race, and a good deal of luck moreso than of the game itself. If one learns the zones and the tactics to use, one can level pretty rapidly.

Pol O'Song

[Thor]

I voted for keeping it the way it is. I could have even gone with make it harder. I think if we start making leveling easier and faster we're really going to have a problem. We'll have a ton of bored eff 30s, 40s, 50s. This is already causing problems. People are getting bored and so we're having to make more changes to try and entertain those that can't level anymore. I definitely think we should, at the very least, keep it the way it is. Yes, I realize I've already leveled and am immortal, but I have played/am playing several mortals that still level and I still think it would be way too easy if the leveling were made easier and faster.

[Solaron]

I voted to make it harder.

[Tynian]

The game has been made *very* newbie friendly in the past several years so starting out has become much easier.

Has it? Or have most of us gotten so old and jaded over the years that we don't quite remember what it's like to feel completely lost and disoriented, and have no freaking clue on what to do or even how to do it? Yeah, it's easier. I don't know if it's "very newbie friendly."

Anyway. If the game is too easy, people will quickly level, hit max levels, get bored, and quit. If the game is too difficult, people will struggle to level, get frustrated, and quit. If the game is just right, people will level enough that they don't get frustrated but still have to work at it, yet hopefully not max out too quickly.

Where that line of difficulty is varies a lot depending on the individual. If you are new, the game may seem daunting. Those that have been around for years (and there are a lot of you) can level a character up very quickly (it's breathtaking, really). You know the world well, you know the game mechanics backwards and forwards, you know where the equipment is, you know who to talk to for a helping hand. For those of you that fall into the latter category, you can probably sleepwalk through the leveling process. And in fact, I've been brought up short by how quickly. Which suggests that it might be too easy. :-/

I wouldn't mind making it easier to understand what the game is about and how to play. I'm not convinced that making leveling easier is the way to go, though. What makes it "too hard?"

[Lycron]

I think it may still be too hard for newbies. Maybe there is a way you could give newbies like levels 1-15 or something random exp bonuses based on their level... starting out somewhat frequent and dwindling down until they reach level fifteen then completely gone after that. Maybe you could also have mobs that randomly pop with 'extra exp' like when you kill a mage mob you get that little extra bonus - maybe just randomly have that pop on like every 1 of 50 mobs or something. I think that may help newbies and some of the struggling players. Another issue is newbies reaching level the teens and people who are more experienced hunting them and killing them, it's discouraging as well. I would actually suggest banning PK or making it an option players can select when they play to turn on or off and the decision couldn't be reversed until level 20. That way newbies have a little extra buffer as well. I've seen some of these things implemented in other muds and they seemed to have decent new player retention. Just a few thoughts. I'd gladly give a hand in writing up some code since I am familiar with merc and just e-mail some snippets.

[Katrana]

Has it? Or have most of us gotten so old and jaded over the years that we don't quite remember what it's like to feel completely lost and disoriented, and have no freaking clue on what to do or even how to do it? Yeah, it's easier. I don't know if it's "very newbie friendly."

Yea, some of us are way 'old' now. And have a hard time remembering newbie school, the blob, no pummel stick...Or do we? A few of us got lucky enough to jump back in to those days even if it was for just an hour or two. Those of us that have fond memories of those were thrown back in for a bit. It made me smile, and remember the days when I first logged in with my very first character. I rolled a human mage, and it took me 2 hours to level. *LOL* I was 13!! So shush. I was a true newbie, and while my dad was playing, he had like a level 5 human warrior or something, we both knew nothing except how to move around and type kill monster:P I remember Baconbits portalling into the monster cage room to give me gear, and teach me simple commands like flee! So while some of don't quite remember, others of us do. I remember it vividly. I never did get that darn mage to level 30. As a matter of fact she never hit 25, lol. Either way that's off topic, well kind of. Fact is, I remember what it's like to have a hard time leveling. I've seen people level to 40 in a month. When it took how long to get to 50 before that? I think it's obvious what I voted for, I voted for making it harder. I could easily live with the same. But easier, psh.

If it gets any easier people could level up fast, rack up perm debt, reincarnate, level up in a week and do it all over again. Having that 'killer' mindset, easier leveling is opening the door for alot of things people would not want to have. The first item listed is just one example, another? We already have several level 50 characters....alot of people have left because they've become bored. Making it faster? Will just speed up the process of people hitting level 50 and becoming more bored, then leaving faster than before.

Okay I'm off the soap box about all that.

I wouldn't mind making it easier to understand what the game is about and how to play. I'm not convinced that making leveling easier is the way to go, though. What makes it "too hard?"

Easy. The people. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, disrespectful or anything else. Yes, the pit is full of gear. Woohoo. People are throwing crappy gear in there, -damage, -int, -wis. A true newbie might not know those things are bad. Or how to turn on itemprop, to even look at all of it. True newbies might not even know how to get there! As I stated before. Baconbits took the initiative to portal to me, to help me out. A handful of people take the time to help the true newbies out. I've seen Grale trying to explain directions to a newbie once. We don't have PBS, or a Conclave that helps like they used to. LOL, here is a perfect example. We all remember Buttercup I'm sure. (Well those of us from that time.) Well my dad played a character named Bronx I think he was level 15 warrior at the time. He followed Tel. He was bloo. Well Bronx croaked in a nasty place. Big Bloos were busy fighting other Conclave in guild and couldn't help Bronx - they got hit everytime they tried to get there. Buttercup got Bronx's corpse, returned it in full, and said something like 'here - Get bigger then I'll earn the corpse.'

Now, I'm not pointing fingers. I'll be the first to admit, that my following was vile and ruthless and kept corpses, and sac'ed even more. But an honest answer to that question...is the people. I believe that as an immortal I had the power to stop that stupid mentality of 'I found it, it's mine, I hate your kind, and I'm gonna make sure you suffer.' I didn't use my power to start it, I was too wound up in the 'I'm gonna keel everyone mode.' I was weak in that respect. My following took on the entire mud, but we did so with a hate for everyone. Perhaps the challenge should be put up to the immortals now, especially those that want to help. Change your gears and tweak things a bit. Don't forget what it was like when you were leveling, and don't forget those that helped you out. In the end. I think we all tend to hold grudges, we all want those that hurt us to suffer. And if that one that made us suffer is part of X following, then that following is gonna suffer too, and if it's part of X faith, they will too, if it's part of X alignment down with them too. ETC.

A simple example:

If you pk someone...give them back what you don't need/want. If you need everything, then get them a ball of light, a container, a weapon, and drink container. Man, when I got pk'ed in 2x I always got back at least a light and a drink container. Nowadays, you're lucky if you got a 'you stood your ground well.' Tell.

Either way. I'll get off this soapbox now too. To sum up. Be nicer to people, and perhaps they won't have as hard a time leveling.

[Tynian]

I rolled a human mage, and it took me 2 hours to level. *LOL* I was 13!! So shush.

I don't know why you felt it necessary to tell me to "shush" for expressing my concern about perspective. And I'm sorry if my point was lost or not understood. It obviously wasn't meant as a personal challenge; just something to keep in mind.

My hope was that some of the more experienced players would take a step back and remember what it's like just starting out playing a mud. If you can remember, then great!

If you pk someone...give them back what you don't need/want. If you need everything, then get them a ball of light, a container, a weapon, and drink container. Man, when I got pk'ed in 2x I always got back at least a light and a drink container. Nowadays, you're lucky if you got a 'you stood your ground well.' Tell.

I agree, and it's nice to see some people return to giving back some of the gear after a PK.

[Katrana]

I don't know why you felt it necessary to tell me to "shush" for expressing my concern about perspective. And I'm sorry if my point was lost or not understood. It obviously wasn't meant as a personal challenge to anyone, just something to keep in mind.


Ohh I wasn't shushing you about that. I was shushing people who might make silly comments because I was 13! And it took me 2 hours!! Oh sorry that you took it that way!

[Tynian]

Ohh I wasn't shushing you about that. I was shushing people who might make silly comments because I was 13! And it took me 2 hours!! Oh sorry that you took it that way!

Aha! Okay, thanks for setting me straight. I guess I didn't think twice about your age, since I thought 13 was a great age to start mudding, and 2 hours isn't all that long, especially pre-Algenara. ;)

[Katrana]

Aha! Okay, thanks for setting me straight. I guess I didn't think twice about your age, since I thought 13 was a great age to start mudding, and 2 hours isn't all that long, especially pre-Algenara. ;)

Oh it was an awesome age to start at! I was addicted to that instead of other things!! LOL, my Dad always knew where to find me, at the computer, eyes glued to the black and green screen!! Ha!

Yea....but 2 hours is like an eternity to a 13 year old though! (And it was a long time to get to level 1, even back then! LOL!) I remember telling my Dad, 'I can't go to lunch I have to get to 2 so I can save!' ::doh::

[JonnyBravo]

Well, I was curious how eveyone felt. Now I know.

As for newbies (true newbies), I agree that the best way to keep them here is for the players to cater to them a bit more than they currently do.

But I would like to jump on my soap box and add something here.

One of the appealing aspects of TFC is pking. I personally chose this mud because, according the mudconnector, TFC was a pk mud (though not "pure" pk - of which by the way are very unimpressive).

I was pk'd a lot when I first started playing, especially at levels 5-15 then 20-30, and usually there were either 1) helpful people to re-equip me or 2) conscientious pkers who returned most or part of the equipment. In fact, one of my first characters, as a level 10-15 warrior, had a "mentor" in pking (A memeber of the Conclave) who consistently sparred me, showed me the do's and dont's, and when he did kill me (which was often) always returned the corpse with helpful advice. As I went into the 20's and 30's, I often experienced the same type of help - and boy did I die a lot.

Today, if I were a "true" newbie, nothing like that would ever happen, and not because of a low player base or even unhelpful players. Playerkilling sub20 is highly discouraged with lots of coding to dampen it, and Playerkilling 20+ is pointless unless you're 40+, because you would be rather ineffective.

So how is a true newbie looking for the excitement of PvP (much as I was) ever going to stick around, when all he has to look forward to is some distant point in time when he can actually put up a decent fight?

I realize that the sentiment here is that if a true newbie is killed and looted, they will get discouraged and leave the mud. But instead of limiting PvP through various codes designed to eliminate damage, increase debt, etc., why not just limit looting? Dying is an inconvenience, but certainly something we can all deal with. Being looted is the pain.

Why not find some way to allow true newbies to participate in pking? Maybe create an arena, or limit looting while eliminating debt. I can think of dozen ways to do this.

And then, when some "true" newbie hops on, I will personally log on a level 10, 15, or whatever, and help show that newbie the ropes - and the excitement - of pking (through sparring/advice/etc.), and try and make the game as exciting for that player as it was for me.

In addition to not getting to experience pking, newbies don't get to experience much RPing nowadays either. Is there anyway that this could be encouraged, or even enforced? This is yet another aspect of the game that was very appealing to me early on.

[Hiro]

Oh it was an awesome age to start at! I was addicted to that instead of other things!! LOL, my Dad always knew where to find me, at the computer, eyes glued to the black and green screen!! Ha!

Yea....but 2 hours is like an eternity to a 13 year old though! (And it was a long time to get to level 1, even back then! LOL!) I remember telling my Dad, 'I can't go to lunch I have to get to 2 so I can save!' ::doh::

This brought back a memory of sitting in Colemans house in Florida late version 1.0 playing on his brand new Packard Bell computer - you know, the one with the screaming fast 16MZ processor and a huge 20meg of hard drive space.

Man Im getting old.

Hiro

[Katrana]

This brought back a memory of sitting in Colemans house in Florida late version 1.0 playing on his brand new Packard Bell computer - you know, the one with the screaming fast 16MZ processor and a huge 20meg of hard drive space.

Man Im getting old.

Hiro

LOL, how about those zooming dial up speeds... And we complain about a 1 or 3 second lag now. Remember the page lag?! Or the lag that would spam you off!! whee

[Belsambar]

Oh it was an awesome age to start at! I was addicted to that instead of other things!! LOL, my Dad always knew where to find me, at the computer, eyes glued to the black and green screen!! Ha!

Yea....but 2 hours is like an eternity to a 13 year old though! (And it was a long time to get to level 1, even back then! LOL!) I remember telling my Dad, 'I can't go to lunch I have to get to 2 so I can save!' ::doh::

You know what I loved about that? Continuing to rock exp so when the 2 hours were up you were like level 8 or 9, or 16 if you were a loaded ogre warrior who just went at it like a machine.

[Avarice]

If you want to help new player retention and if you have faith in the gameplay aspects of tfc, expose some of the mechanics of the game in the help files. As it stands now, you type help <topic> and it tells you to find out for yourself, or gives an extremely short description that doesn't really help at all. I've looked extensively at the help files here, in comparison to other realms and I think thats probably one of the biggest issues you've got when it comes to retention. For example, type help str and you get this:
STR = Strength - A rating of how strong you are.

Well, no kidding. But how does that affect things? Should i care how strong I am? Seriously, this is not very helpful. If there were 50 ppl on all the time and someone was always around to help newbies this wouldn't matter much, but sadly of the 5-10 ppl usually on, there's often nobody who's going to take time to help a level 1, rightly figuring that its just a veteran making an alt. If you really want to retain people, make the helpfiles extensive, useful and worth taking the time to read. If the person doesn't have the patience to read helpfiles they probably won't play regardless but if they do lets give them something worthwhile.

[Tynian]

Please submit your proposed help file text, and if I like it, I'll use it.

Thanks.

[pitt]

I like the idea of reviewing help files, some of them do seem unneccessarily cryptic.

Maybe this would be a good use for the wiki? If there's a way to easily get a list of all the help topics, it could be posted to the wiki and people could edit what they know, and the gods+ could add/update what's appropriate. I'd definitely be happy to write some helps.

A good starting point would maybe be to make some templates for different 'types' of helps.. skills/spells, etc. Is there a format that would make it easier to add to the game (i.e. with just a cut and paste?) and keep things consistent (like all the spell helps have the class/levels that get the spell)?

Some writing guidelines would probably be good too.. I suspect that we should try not to go into exact affects, but keep it in theme as much as possible. (e.g. "gives a +1 +(level/10) bonus for (level*10) ticks" is probably bad, "gives a temporary bonus, that increases in effectiveness and duration with the caster's level" is probably better)

[Tynian]

I have no opinion on the wiki, except to say that the website, forum, and wiki aren't necessarily good substitutes to in-game help.

If the text looks reasonable and requires only minor changes, it's easy enough to update. And indeed, the specifics (as in your power and duration example) would be removed, if provided.

[Gwyrdain]

And indeed, the specifics (as in your power and duration example) would be removed, if provided.

I believe the point being made was that making some more mechanics available via the helps would be beneficial to newbies (and IMO help newbie retension). Removing the specifics would defeat the idea being proposed.

Here's a better, specific example -- I'm a newbie trying to figure out which class to choose. How do I do so? In pen and paper RPG's the rulebook tells you what the +'s and -'s are for each class. I would be looking for the following:

1. Primary / Secondary Attributes (of course there would also have to be a help explaining what these mean)
2. HP/MA/MV gain per level (e.g., '1d8' or 'between 5-10' or whatever)

[Tynian]

Fine, do that then. I will not sanction listing the 'under the hood' mechanics. So wiki away.

[pitt]

I wasn't suggesting making 'under the hood' details too readily available. I believe one of the reasons that TFC has had the lasting allure it's had with me is that so much is hidden and mysterious that it (a) is easy to stay in the 'theme' of the game when you're playing and (b) always feels like there's new things to learn.

I just think that many of the help files really could use some updates, and I'm sure lots of players would be willing to help out, but if some guidelines were set first maybe less people would send Tynian things with the details he's going to edit out anyway.