Re-equipping too difficult?

[Odmar]

Ok.....here is my take from my experience of being more of the hunted...rather than the hunter. I have used the stats page extensively to avoid being pk'd..as many do.

I think what we want to do is to have more players and more player interaction. Battles, group-exping, individual exploring...etc....and less safe-sitting, unless you really like the chat-room experience.

Why do players safe-sit? So they don't want to get pk'd. Why don't they want to get pk'd? Because, in my opinion, it took TOO MUCH TIME to get their eq set to where it is now and it can be VERY discouraging to most players to lose it.

What about making it less time-consuming to rebuild a basic eq set if you die? That way, you can just brush off the dust, pick yourself up and play smarter next time. I think much less people would leave the game too. Let more time be spent in exploring, grouping, fighting, etc....without it being so devastating to die.

I don't know the best way to implement this but Tynian and others who know TFC code could figure out an easy way.

Another thought on eq (and i'll probably get shot down on this making things too easy). ......when starting a new character......have an option that allows you to rank what leveling stats on the eq you would prefer, in order, and your newbie character would get some basic eq (like you would list int,con,str,dex,wis,luc,chr and you would be provided with several slots with int(2), a bit less number of slots with con(2), a couple slots with str(2), and so on. This would enable the newbies to get some fairly decent levels in the beginning.

OR (and this would be simple to implement), you could hide such eq around newbie zone....let them do a scavenger hunt for it. (you could have messages that instruct them a bit more on what certain eq does and basic hints on how to figure out how much to wear). Those frog legs and cotton scarves on the newbie mobs are worthless. Let's give our newbies a good start and not have them discover at level 10...that their stats and levels have been lousy and they should have been wearing more of this stat and less of that.

The basic gist of this post is to not make the game so time-intensive in gathering eq.

Odmar Shortlegs

PS. If you made it less painful to re-equip....people would get out and play more - and they wouldn't be so dependent on the stats page for defense.

[Grale]

I have to differ with you on this one. In some ways, it does take a long time to build a perfect set - especially if you have some unique items that you're proud of and don't want to loose.

On the other hand, most of us belong to a following. Most, if not all of the followings are quite well-off in the equipment category. And I have never been in a following that didn't share very, very generously with it's fallen members.

When someone in my following dies, they have the benefit of anything I have on hand, as well as anything that I've pass on to my deity that they haven't reissued yet. I just don't see this as the reason people safe-sit. Personally, I safe sit because I like just hanging out. Sometimes I safe-sit to regenerate after a bad knocking around. And often I safe-sit to avoid being fed through a meat grinder at the end of Orpik's swords (I love ya, 'pik!).

Newbies can re-equip nicely from the pit, which I note is almost always full lately. Veterans can re-equip from their following's stockpile, assuming their deity is around and able to spend a few minutes. And the rest of us keep adding to those piles.

Of course, we could just have all safe-rooms be private rooms (guild too!) and have fewer of them! Maybe a 3-person max in any safe room? Hrmm... good idea - I'll start a seperate thread on that....

Grale, Eldritch Guardian

[Tynian]

What about making it less time-consuming to rebuild a basic eq set if you die? That way, you can just brush off the dust, pick yourself up and play smarter next time. I think much less people would leave the game too. Let more time be spent in exploring, grouping, fighting, etc....without it being so devastating to die.

I hear what you are saying. On the other hand, how long does it take to build a "basic" set?

What is really discouraging is when you spend a lot of time perfecting a set just to have it taken. I don't have any quick "solutions" for that, though.

This would enable the newbies to get some fairly decent levels in the beginning.

I'd like to redo leveling. I just don't know how to do it without putting existing characters at a grave disadvantage or overwhelming advantage.

[Tynian]

On the other hand, most of us belong to a following.

I'm glad you brought followings up.

I'd like to see followings as our face to newbies. New players should be able to join followings and benefit from the advantages that such a group brings. Yes, a newbie will tend to take more than they can contribute, but if we can get them to keep playing, we will have a larger player base, and eventually, they will become contributors.

It's tough for a new player that can neither get into a following because they don't know enough to pass the entry test, and it can be difficult to get aid, since fellow followers have priority.

I miss the days when FLIs would actively recruit younger characters. Those that don't want to join a following don't have to. But it's nice to be wanted, no?

[Gwyrdain]

Having reviewed a couple of the followings' entry requirements, I must say that I think they could appear daunting to a newbie -- having interviews, doing quests, making up lengthy character histories before you decide that you're ready to commit time to TFC... even the minimum level 10 requirement. Quite frankly the time up to level 10 for a true 1st timer is probably the time that being in a helpful following would be of the most benefit.

Anyway, I don't mean to deride the FLIs' rules choices and I know this quick note didn't consider the other side of the argument and I know I'm probably the worst person to comment on followings and I know it's slightly off-topic, etc... Just something to ponder.

[eldric]

I'm glad you brought followings up.

I'd like to see followings as our face to newbies. New players should be able to join followings and benefit from the advantages that such a group brings. Yes, a newbie will tend to take more than they can contribute, but if we can get them to keep playing, we will have a larger player base, and eventually, they will become contributors.

It's tough for a new player that can neither get into a following because they don't know enough to pass the entry test, and it can be difficult to get aid, since fellow followers have priority.

I miss the days when FLIs would actively recruit younger characters. Those that don't want to join a following don't have to. But it's nice to be wanted, no?

As Thor's OM I try and help/recruit UA characters when I can. Generally supplying them with equpiment, popping baldrics weapons and giving them spells. Sometimes they join, sometimes they don't it's fun for me however to give time equipment they might need, or smash a mob they can't handle.

[Tynian]

That's good to hear, Eldric. I want new players to see the friendly side of TFC. We all know there's the killed and be killed side, as well, and that will be easier for new players to grow accustomed to, if they feel like their followers (and of course helpful non-followers) are looking out for them.

[pitt]

Going back to the title topic of the thread, I think it's definitely easy enough to re-equip. Stats-wise, that is. The one thing that keeps me in safe when there's meanies on or my connection is lousy is the thought of losing restrings. A lot of my time invested in my character is represented in various restrings... time questing for restring credits, and character development for the restring ideas. I'm sure I could in no time recover a suit that would have stats enough for me to have fun, but I don't like the thought of losing restrings. And of course, those are the items that a pker would keep, since it always made sense to restring the best items so you don't want to swap them out later ;)

I suppose my point is that perhaps a player could have an inventory slot restrung instead of an item. If I could wear any old amulet and be seen to still be wearing my goggles, I'd obviously not be so afraid of losing them!

Maybe there could be different classes of restring.. absolute character-defining items that could be very rare 'slot' restrings, in addition to the regular restrings. I suppose it could add some more fun to the pk game when people are fighting over bragging rights to some famous unique item (although I can't remember offhand any specific times this has happened), so it'd be a shame to lose them entirely. I have had restrings that were passed on to me and have less personal sentimental value, and could be interesting trophies.

P.S. I do think that being nice to newbies sub-thread topic is important too! I'm nice to newbies! And I seem to recall from previous discussions with imms that if a mortal worships, but the immortal doesn't accept, the immortal is permitted to give items to the mortal? Maybe this would be a way for immortals to help out with the newbie game, and lighten their loads of level gear too. Although this is probably going to open all kinds of possibilites for abuse that I'm too tired to think of right now.

[Tynian]

I suppose I should have restrained my following comments to just talk about the re-equipping aspect, though that was the underlying theme...

[pitt]

no criticism intended, I just had more interesting and perhaps novel ideas about the re-eqing thing than the newbie-helping thing.. which for me is a given ;)

[wish]

I agree with Pitt that a way to preserve ones restrings would be a nice thing to have. PKers gunning for your eq don't generally care that it is called "Wish's Third Tentacle", or whatever. However, I do not agree that this is why people stay in the guild.

People safe sit for three reasons, in my opinion. The first is certainly that they do not wish to lose the equipment and gold that they have gained. I kind of think this is a hold over from earlier times when a 3dmg item was a fairly valuable thing. A few years ago, if you lost a full set of 3dmg, a health ammy, and one or two +4 or +5 stat items, that was a really big deal. Now, for anyone over level 25 or 30, that has become a basic set, and is easily acquireable in a matter of days. So, again, I think the fear of eq loss is a holdover.

The second reason is simply boredom. If you don't have to level anymore, and you know that there are people on who are far better equipped than you and will hunt you incessently, what is the point of leaving safe? There is nothing to do out there, other than walk around trying to random. Why not sit in a safe room and chat? Its all there is to do anyways! There are no cool limiteds to try to get, because they have all pretty much been taken by someone else before you. I don't mean this as a criticism of Tynian at all! Tynian has done an excellent job of trying to expand things with mobhunt, location quests, mobmaster, etc. However, as I have said before, the game is by its very nature limited, and this is evidenced by the fact that many of us have reached those limits.

Finally the third reason I think people sit in safe is far more fundamental, and it comes down to ego. Quite simply, there is a certain humiliation that comes from getting pked. Most pks are simply not the flawless exercise of tactics and strategy by the pker. Most people die because they panic, or made a mistake, or just were not paying attention. When the end result of that is your corpse in someone elses hands, to most people it literally feels bad. I know when it has happened to me, I have left the mud feeling disgusted with myself and it takes a while to recover. Getting taunted by the pker doesn't help. This is why I have made a very conscious effort to change both how I pk, and how I respond to getting pked. I post my successful pk logs (few as they are), whether I am the attacker or the victim. I do not taunt my victims, and I compliment my killer. The point is that I try to take the emotional sting out of pks, because I want to want to keeping playing, and I want my victims to keep playing. Posting the logs keeps everything out in the open and demonstrates that I am not afraid to lay my own mistakes out for everyone to see, analyze, make fun of, etc.

Of these three reasons, I believe the effort required to re-equip is the least important factor.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[pitt]

As Pitt, the restrings deal is genuinely the main reason why I'm often inside _when I would like to go out_. The boredom reason is a factor I guess, and the fact that I don't have locate object so I can't find out about potentially nice randoms from the guild (*wink Tynian*) contributes to that. The main reasons I go out these days are quests I have time to participate in, recovering corpses, and generally halping folks out, and I have to admit there have been times when I infoed somebody dying I wanted to help out, but pkers made me stay in, even though I could still do this just as well with a set I could put together in a week, I think.

For my levelling characters, I definitely agree that fear of losing eq is a factor. It can be a _lot_ of work to fit lots of combo items together in such a way that you have the required levelling gear plus enough combat gear and ac to actually exp. I expect now that people won't be afraid of wearing too much level gear this will be less of a problem...? I remember being really annoyed when I'd random a +2con +3dmg combo when I only needed +1 con for my level gear and was afraid to wear more :)

Your'e probably right about the humiliation thing too, and you certainly have a good attitude about the whole deal :) I don't really think this has ever been a problem for me personally, I realised very early on that it was unrealistic to want to role-play some kind of invincible bastion of goodness that feared no evil, so my characters have been humble enough to shrug off the odd pk...

[Dauthi]

Would just like to start off with...GREAT restring idea Pitt, never would have thought of that. *slap self*
Alright moving on to newbies or low lvl characters equiping.
would it be possible to have more equipment like pumel sticks. except stats can be seen, maybe 1con 1dmg items, 3wis 1int items, so on. just have them not work anymore at whatever lvl, 10 or something, but a bunch of different ones pop for newbies in hometowns and newbie zone. only allow small characters to wear them and beable to use the affects.
As for larger characters and limited gear.
We all know that most of the decent limited gear is usually taken. or the gear is fairly difficult to get to. lack of group power or because the cons of going through the specific zone to obtain the item.
What about adding new limited items that purge and repop based on activity rank. even just basic 3dmg item, but item will purge from you if you dont wear it or you fall below a certain rank on the activity rank list. this would stop characters from being able to store the eq away because it would just purge if that character didnt stay active enough to actually use it. This could create more activity among smaller and larger characters alike.
........
some items that are very nice purge very quickly, the character would have to hold an activity rank 20 or below to stop the item from purging.
some items may have longer time- like 25 rank in 7day 30 day 60 day and so on.
Characters will either random to try and fill this slot or be forced to be more active to stop the items from purging.
Perhaps even go as far as having certain items be based not only on activity rank but on out of safe rank. i character collects this sort of limited gear then sits in guild with it, rarely getting use out of it, well the out of safe rank would catch up to them sooner or later.

just the basic idea, not sure if this was the right thread for it or not but oh well. letme know what you all think. or if you think i should organize this better and start a thread with it.

and yes wish i do agree that it use to be a horrible feeling to get pk'd, the crap talk that you get from the pk'er and from people that see the log....*if you messed up and died because of the mistake*. even when pk'ing and the person you kill starts telling you horrible things, i hate you, calling you horrible names. Sometimes you wouldnt see the character log in for several weeks after you kill.(how sucky)... I tend to try and say nice work, or nice job if i get killed. maybe even talk to the person about the fight...things like..how i felt during it....what i think really screwed me, or dang i had no chance in hell of making it out alive but it sure was fun...things like that.

[Pol]

I think, as it relates to re-equipping, the solution is already implemented. The 'reequip' command, were it adjusted to provide level appropriate equipment, should make it so that any reasonably prepared character doesn't have to start from absolute nil and can continue to play (albeit in a greatly limited capacity than before) immediately after losing everything.

Even if non-magical, reequip should have a graduated AC, I think, dependant on level (and increasingly expensive, of course).

As for PK etiquette - kudos to both Wish and Dauthi and others like them for taking some of the sting out of it. Being sporting after killing someone, and especially after being killed themselves, is a very classy thing to do.

Pol O'Song

[Furnock]

Re-Equiping is not difficult at all. Keeping it until your set is competitive is the hard part. Since this thread is more about re-eq'ing than survival skills, I'll focus on the gear.

I die a lot. Some times to PK while I'm out refilling my bread bag and some times because I had 29 successful teleports, what's one more?

When I'm without EQ, I'm at a perfect state. I have in the area of 37 newly empty slots to fill. If I need to throw something on to run down the hall without offending anyone, I'll pull what fits me from the Pit. Don't worry, I'm not gonna take that nifty +20 moves boots intended for the next newbie who chose dwarf shaman. Barring that, know your Limiteds. They can take you on the course to replacing your EQ.

e.g.
Naked Furnock (forgive the visual of a 1600 year old elf naked) walks into Loth Lorien and scares the eagles. He walks up to the first elven gentleman or lady he comes across and kills them. By now I have enough gold on hand to buy a pouch, a gourd and some food. Oh and for those of you that use them, kill a couple guards for Recall potion money. At this time you can also pick up a full set of Matrial Armor, if you like, by killing defenders. High AC plus minimum stat boosts to get you to the next level of gear.

Next, naked but no longer hungry Furnock (again excuse the previous visual now combined with eating in that condition) heads to Lizard Swamp. Northwestern corner is a hovel. In the hovel is a ring that I think is +2 luck. At this time, Furnock makes a choice of north or south by flipping a lizard child. Lands on his head, I go north. Lands on his tail, I go south. Ok, he landed on his tail.

Furnock is now on his way fully clothed in a ring and maybe his old Aerie Scout uniform on his way to what used to be Elemental Canyon. Instead of going down into the zone at the chest, go south and kill the minotaur magi or whatever for the Silvery Blue Cuirass, sleeves and other gear. This stuff is the non-metal dude's best friend. High AC plus monster bonus to aff ac. While you are here go down into the zone and pick off the wandering warrior and releive him of his loin cloth and skull cap (magi may have skull cap. My memory is full and I've been un-eq'd a while). Then head down to Altibia and grab yerself a scroll. If you can't do that, have some mage do a mediocre enchant for you. You can either buy a star from the dark bro's or go grab something nifty like the Massive Hammer in Duergar. I'm a big fan of the Imp's Halberd carried by Kappa the River Demon. Crossbow, Cloak and rattrap from Dwarven Hunter. It's all out there; and more.

If you don't like the silvery blue cuirass, head north into the dwarven mines near Castle Strangelove. Shake down one of the guards for the green key and get the Granite Platemail from the Darkenbeast. He also has a nifty crown and aff ac ring.
Southern continent more your style? Head to the ents and fleece the royalty. Go to Tier and grab some gear. It's not the best but it's out there and should hold anyone over until they grind out some decent randoms or donations.

[Belsambar]

Furnock, you have a full memory, so I'll forgive you...

""Then head down to Altibia and grab yerself a scroll. If you can't do that, have some mage do a mediocre enchant for you. You can either buy a star from the dark bro's or go grab something nifty like the Massive Hammer in Duergar. I'm a big fan of the Imp's Halberd carried by Kappa the River Demon.""

First, it's Old-Thalos. Altibia is the place on South Continent. Second, Kappa no longer exists, since we no longer have monastary ((since you travel by teleport, these are excusable))

Alright. That's said ((sorry, I couldn't let the errors sit there :P))

Re-equipping is easy. If all you need is level stuffs, or otherwise, it's really not that difficult. So you can't pk. So what? There's other things to do, and just making yourself 'capable' is really easy. Speaking from experience ((Furnock is the only one in competition with me for who dies more)).

Yes, I do believe the 'reequip' command should improve upon the 'basic' set of filling slots with AC and a torch. Maybe slightly better AC as you get bigger....weapons or 'base items' that are figured based on level and prime class spcifics. Not much, you really don't need much. All of you pker's out there....how many times in the past 6 months have you killed me, and then seen me re-eq'd in mods in 4 hours when all I did was walk around and/or teleport?

In regards to losing restrings, I like Pitt's idea. I want the restring sbecause of how they look on me....yeah, it's nice to restring a rather nice eq item before you do it, but I do that restring because of how it portrays the character. Whether it's a level 32 health, or a 1dmg -2hr amulet, as long as it has the nifty stuff that makes light of things you might otherwise not 'see' from looking at my character, the important thing to me is that it's portrayed.

In regards to nice pker's, yes well, I've run afoul of plenty of all types....the 'Haha you died!!' people, as well as the 'Damn, that sucks....lemme see what I can give back man'. But risk is part of the game, and I do agree, the fear of losing eq is an old throwback. C'mon people, what good is the gear if all you do is sit in guild? So you might die checking out this zone, or going with The SuicideMage on THAT adventure...you're playing the game....not sitting in a chat room. There's always something to do, someplace to explore, re-explore, something to go? 'Can I kill that? I don't know if I can but I'll give it a shot..."

That's how you learn, and enjoy. Or at least how I always have.

To quote a conversation between me and Noctus as we cr'd both of our corpses after attacking the Unfinished Guardian:

Me: Man, we'll never learn our lesson, will we? *laugh*

Noctus: *grins mischeviously* The day I learn my lesson is the day I quit playing TFC.

Well. That's how I feel too. There's always a challenge out there, the best part is finding out how to BEAT that challenge. Whether by finding the right group to do it, or finding the eq, or simply trying and finding out either you can or you can't. Yeah, you may lose your eq, but that's half the fun, now you get to start all over, and you never know what you'll find just trying to find something to fill a slot ((Note, that's how most of the 5dmg's I've heard about were originally found...someone re-equing and just randomly slayin a zone to fill slots and going 'What's this?'))

Anyway, this one's far too long already...from me anyway. ::lol::