tfc site

[mars]

well my idea is for the best of a player killing mud. Remove the Current Statistics part of the news and info on the site. People look at that and know if they cant see someone. I dont see a reason why this should be available, defeats the purpose of having Obscurity, or Invis, or hide and its just keeping people in safe rooms. It can be so hard getting a PK b/c most of my prey just end up safe sitting and when i do have a luxory of having invis they tend not to move cause they can see (basically) if i am on. At times it can be hard enough to land a kill. anyways its not like they cant find out in the game who is on....there is always bounty, or even asking someone who may be able to see if someone is on. This featrure has no purpose

Mars.

[Avarice]

I'm in 100% agreement here. There are too many ways to see if I'm on or not and the instant I log in everyone hits safe if they aren't named Ink. Lets remove it.

[jaeden]

I'll throw a thumbs up here as well..and I say this knowing full well i'll have to start setting up a lot more alarms.

Nice catch, Mars.

[Solaron]

This meets with Solaron's approval! *gasp*

::up::

[Thor]

OK, I'll step up for the advocates of the TFC stat page. Personally, I really like/liked having the stat page when I was a mortal. It probably saved me from getting pk'd numerous times.

That being said, what are your (people that want it taken out) thoughts on those that have come to rely on the stat page? I have a feeling that guild sitting will increase a lot if you take out the stat page. Without at least knowing there is SOMEONE on that "I" can't see, leaving guild can be extremely scary. Someone will stop leaving guild (maybe stop playing) if they have no idea at all if there is someone they can't see. I know there is MoK and all that, but that still involves leaving guild and going to a very unfriendly place to check.

What do you say to some sort of comprimse? Perhaps not break down the stats quite so much. I'd be happy with simply "There are 10 people online." This way it is easier for the pkers to hide, but the others still have at least some help. I'd especially be in favor of putting this information in the who command, or some other in-game only medium, and not on a web page. This would elminate people with multiple chars looking at the stat page to determine with alt to bring on.

Just my thoughts.

[Maeron]

I really doubt there will be less guild sitters with no stats page, if you can't see your threat and are unaware of his presence, why wouldn't you be out and about?

I do agree with the point about which characters may come on due to the numbers of good/evil and level ranges that are currently on.

I say away with the stats page, and sorry to those who depend on it. Plenty of people levelled to 50 without it.

[kehrindrek]

i will readily admit that i obsessively use the stat page. the tool is there so why not? i do however think that it removes some of the mystery of the game and takes away from what seems like normal in-game function of how players (and the classes they play) should be determining the presence of threats/targets.

let mages use their detects and clerics use their ts and remove the stat page or at least the character revealing portion of it.

[Pol]

MUD's are interactive games between players. Posting current activity on the news page is an advertisement for the MUD and a way of bringing players on - both current players and potential new players as well.

Some people might want to log into an empty server to do locates and such, but that's not too much fun in the grand scheme of things. I think there's incentive to log in when you see the server's population matches one's preference or when you see a particular immortal logged in or even when you see general activity.

Not to mention, it doesn't name names or give locations. The only information it can possibly provide is that there are more people logged in than one can see on 'who'. For the high level player, this is moot - detects and TS will see most, if not all, characters. For the mid-level, however, it's invaluable given the ease with which one can get a high level invis.

Now, if you *really* want to make it interesting and scary, take away 'who' and level the playing field for both the hunters and the hunted. :)

Pol O'Song.

[Solaron]

MUD's are interactive games between players. Posting current activity on the news page is an advertisement for the MUD and a way of bringing players on - both current players and potential new players as well.

Some people might want to log into an empty server to do locates and such, but that's not too much fun in the grand scheme of things. I think there's incentive to log in when you see the server's population matches one's preference or when you see a particular immortal logged in or even when you see general activity.

Not to mention, it doesn't name names or give locations. The only information it can possibly provide is that there are more people logged in than one can see on 'who'. For the high level player, this is moot - detects and TS will see most, if not all, characters. For the mid-level, however, it's invaluable given the ease with which one can get a high level invis.

Now, if you *really* want to make it interesting and scary, take away 'who' and level the playing field for both the hunters and the hunted. :)

Pol O'Song.

It also tells level ranges/alignments. It's more than "There's 10 people on".

What if we have the Online Statistics or whatever page it is be delayed by 2 hours or something? Newbies can still see what the activity has been like that day.

[Dauthi]

I would have to agree with Maeron on this one, many people have gotten to aff40 or 50 without it. Personally i don't use it, bounty was put in the game for a reason. Besides, only a very select few are able to 1 round you on your way to MOK. I suppose the number of people online wouldnt be bad. Just count out the alignment, levels...so on..

[morgaine]

I don't use the newspage very much. I log on pump my ts by 200 and type who. I will agree however, that the stats page is readily abused. Theres five evils on so how about logging in my evil character? Theres 4 50's on so I can't exp, and might as well log in a newbie? These are a couple things i think are happening. Removing the alignment and level splits would achieve a better balance for tfc.

-Morgaine

[Anonymous Mammal]

The stats page is great. It does its job and it does it well. It breaks down who is playing right that very moment - which may be the only problem people have with it. The page allows for a would-be player to see that there is activity happening on TFC and that if they chose to log into the game they would not be alone.

I do understand the argument against the stats that are revealed on the page. Here is my idea for a compromise:
*******************************************
Current
Mortals: 7 online.

Today's totals
Mortals: 0 good, 4 evil, 0 neutral, 3 unaligned.
Races: 2 dwarf, 1 elf, 1 half-elf, 1 human, 1 minotaur, 1 ogre.
Class distribution:
5 warrior, 3 mage, 3 thief, 2 cleric, 2 shaman, 1 ordained, 1 ranger, 1 thug.
Represented levels:
Levels 6 - 10: 1
Levels 11 - 15: 1
Levels 16 - 20: 1
Levels 21 - 25: 1
Levels 41 - 45: 1
Levels 46 - 50: 2 .
PK classifications present: 4 pacifist, 2 vigilante, 1 miscreant.
Average online time for those online:
1.7 hours.
*******************************************

What this would do would be to show that
1) There are players on right now (without giving specifics)
2) There have been players on today (with supplying various statistics about who has been on)

The "Today's totals" section would just be a running count of the statistics for that day. The "Current" section would only list how many players were on and nothing more.

The information above was taken from the stats page as I made this post.

[Avarice]

I think its pretty funny listening to ppl talk about how the current stats page is somehow anything but a tool to avoid pk. Its not advertising, nobody but active players use it.

All it does is tell ppl to run to safe cuz theres someone big on they can't see. If we want eq to circulate more, if we want ppl to actually die once or twice before they hit eff 50, we need to remove this or at least seriously limit the amount of information its giving out. As it stands now, you don't hafta even log in to see pretty much exactly who is around. People simply cross-reference the information they have with what they know....for instance they see level 50 online, OM online and x amount of evils....they cross reference this with races online and decide if its me, tay, or argo. I do it all the time to see what kinda prey might be xp'ing for that matter.

Removing it benefits everyone and forces people to use the in-game tools to determine who is around, which in my eyes just means better gameplay overall. If it means someone pk's me, or I pk someone so much the better its a game the more action it has the more fun it is.

Thor basically gave the best reason for removing it...it helps people avoid pk. Listening to other people squirm out reasonings for keeping it makes me sick. Newbies don't even really know how to access stats page when they start, they're too busy actually learning stuff in-game. Its only veteran players on newbie.chars that truly make use of this feature and its to the overall detriment of the game that so few pk's happen as a direct result. At least, thats my opinion.

[Thor]

If we want eq to circulate more, if we want ppl to actually die once or twice before they hit eff 50, we need to remove this or at least seriously limit the amount of information its giving out.


I don't see removing the state page as helping to circulate EQ. I see it making the strong pkers stronger and the weak players weaker. For example, if you or Ink or someone like that kills more people because they aren't able to use the stat page to see you, you get more and more EQ. Sure, you may distribute it to other followers, etc...but, who kills the big guys? Staying alive is just about all some characters have. If the big people kill them over and over, the big people have EQ and the small ones have nothing.

As it stands now, you don't hafta even log in to see pretty much exactly who is around.


It is for this reason that I would fully support seeing less information on the stat page. It's too easy to look and ask yourself, "OK, which alt should I bring on?" (Yes, I've done it.)

Removing it benefits everyone

In what way does it benefit the smaller people?

If it means someone pk's me, or I pk someone so much the better its a game the more action it has the more fun it is.

In all fairness, what do you think the odds are of someone pking you? For some people, dying and losing EQ does not equal more fun.

Just my thoughts.

[Tay]

one way or the other ppl are gonna be upset i figures
but, if you remove stats page, someone logs in a character, sees someone big on, logs out, waits, 5-10 mins and logs in an alt, whats the diffrence? the 5-10 minute wait?

[Grale]

How much does this really matter, anyway? Avarice, I suppose I can understand your frustration at a lack of targets, but speaking for the foxes (as opposed to the hounds) I don't wanna die either.

Sure I died a few times, escaped a few times, and still XPed when bad people were online.

But I don't think I ever looked at the stats page before I hit level 50... and I still don't, really. When I log on, I know you're there cause I can see you. Or someone else can, and tells me. And yes, I avoid you when I am out of safe... but I don't live my life in-game by it.

*shrug*

I just think this is a non-issue.

Grale, Eldritch Guardian

[Solaron]

It's a non-issue for you, Grale... for me as well, I suppose, however, there are many people who live by the stats page. They refresh it every few minutes and compare their who list with what the page tells them. They know if someone is hiding or invis. They can see all the classes on and say 'Oh, well, it looks like there's a shaman I can't see and he's high level'. It's pretty in-depth.

Removing it, however, will only benefit PKers. This is purely a PK fix. While I support it, my support doesn't mean a whole lot. I support almost anything that increases the opportunity for player vs. player combat.

[Tylin]

I'll be very honest. I use this page...alot. When I'm exping, I have it up. Now I leveled pre stats page as well with alts. I was alarming everywhere. Cautious as could be, but now, there is no reason to, unless I'm helping others try to find someone. Also, exp'ing was more exciting pre stats page because you were surprised when the invis someone hit your alarm - because you have no idea who they are, now you don't even give them the chance because you know they are on.

Now, with the stats page being so in depth, I do not alarm nearly as much as I probably should. I can tell if someone is in my range. And ever since I can be hit by those of bigger levels, it's a sin if I don't open it up and check it every 3 mins. (Cause hey 3 mins is less than the log in requirements, so if you're invis, in a certain range, and evil, I'll be in safe long before you can hit my zone.) Ohh I have a trigger that goes off every 3 mins to let me know to check the page. LOL okay, I'm just kidding I don't, but maybe I should!

What if there was a 10 min delay on the stats page. There is already one on the news page for deaths. That way, the 10 min delay would be well past the 5 min login restriction time, so people have 5 mins to chase their target without the target being able to 'stat page' the hunter.

[jaeden]

I think half the people here have been inadvertantly arguing for the removal of the stats page. Things have gotten way to easy on TFC. with the recent changes to regens, and such, I think it would tip the scales in the opposite direction a bit if the stat page was at least dumbed down. I (and I can't believe I'm saying this,) like Anonymous Mammal's idea. Make the "online" stats be for the day and not the minute(or however quickly it refreshes itself). It would still give players a general idea of who's on, but not the ability to have a virtual god detect invis without even expending mana.

[pitt]

I like the page as it is. I'd like it just as much if it were more vague, though... maybe just make the information about the current alignments, pk classifications and levels of players less exact? For example, if there were currently mostly evil, low level, sociopaths online, one might see:

Mortals: 8 online.
Races: 3 elf, 2 human, 1 dwarf, 1 half-elf, 1 minotaur.
Class distribution:
5 mage, 4 warrior, 3 thief, 2 ranger, 2 shaman, 1 cleric.
Alignment:
The realm is dominated by evil.
Represented levels:
The inhabitantants of the realm are mostly young and inexperienced.
PK classifications:
The realm is infused with bloodlust
Average online time for those online:
0.7 hours.

[Tynian]

Given that most everyone that replied to this thread seems opposed to any real detail on the status of the game, is this okay?

http://www.finalchallenge.net/tfc/news/stats.php

[Tynian]

Just to expand on my thoughts:

I don't really see what the big deal is. So the page is useful. And it allows you to know that someone is invisible out there. It's hard for me to get too worked up about it.

My original idea was to provide real time game information as a means of keeping the game close to people's web browsers, and thus perhaps a little closer to the game. I also hoped that people would get a general idea of the level ranges online and would pick the character that would seem to best fit in without having to log in a character, do a 'who', realize that another character would be more fun, log out character 1, and log in character 2.

Who is online is just one good true seeing away, and many of us are well connected enough to know someone online that can see almost anyone. The stats page, as originally set up, tells everyone what to expect. Taking this info away mostly hinders those with less friends and connections.

By that same token, I don't see the stats page as nearly the threat that some of you seem to. I think you give it too much credit. I'm not convinced that removing the info from the stats page will make people more likely to leave the guild. In fact, it might make them less likely to leave, while they wait for someone to log in that they can trust to tell them who is online. I've not known the risk adverse to feel more comfortable when less is known about a situation.

We sure have gotten far away from the days when any detect invis would detect any invis. Anyone with any detect invis could see anyone that was invis. People left the guild just fine, knowing who was out there. One might even say that since you could make an informed opinion on whether to venture out, you could evaluate the risk fairly, and may be a little more willing to take a chance, since you don't have to worry about someone with a better invis clobbering you unseen.

Regardless, I don't feel strongly enough about this to stand in your way. If the stats page is a threat to the game, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I hope stripping it down helps.

As for redoing stats so that they are historical, I'm ambivalent. On one hand, it might be interesting. On the other, I don't want to do the work. So, my inclination is towards the "quick fix," (assuming that it's apparently broken) with the possibility of addressing it further at a later time (if deemed useful or important enough). From my perspective, yes, the stats page is useful, and no, I don't think it's crazy useful. But I'll let it go. :)

[jaeden]

I wasn't expressing a distaste for the page. Simply suggesting that it be less specific. Instead of telling level ranges, just give a count of the players online. what does it really matter what level they are? New players are looking for how many players are on, not what level they are.

[Tynian]

My comments were meant to be taken in general, based on the anti-stats page posts over the past few days. :) And the reply was made with no one specific post in mind -- just what I remember. ::up::

[Avarice]

Since I doubt everyone else has noticed this, let me just say this change is utterly amazing. I know I've been quite vocal about this issue but I think this is a change that will benefit everyone. No, it won't prevent people from utilizing other resources to avoid pk, but why make it easy for them? As one of the select few who have Ordained class I can't say its making it any easier for me....as I said before its easy to cross reference. However this change at least forces folks to use the in-game functions available to decide if a virulent pk'er is on. If they dont' know how to figure that out, they will learn, I promise you they will learn!
Ink, Piter, Orpik and everyone else who pk's owes Mars a thank you for suggesting this!

[Zeus]

*throws a couple pennies into the pit** that's my 2 cents worth... I don't see the need to make it easier for the thugs and murdering slime. In other forms, I've been on TFC longer than I'd like to admit. Yes, i know it's a "PK mud". So what... not everyone is out for another 'notch in their belt". Per capita, i suspect my former incarnations have been PK'd more often than 95% of all the players. Shamans don't have detect invis or hidden or True Seeing... and seeing an 'aura' in your room doesn't do much for my heart rate.

So... why make easier for those who likely have the big TS ammy or the spell already? A high level hide... bah! what's the point... one stat i like.... is the ranking out-of-safe in spite of all the wannabe killers out there. Long time players could prob guess who some of my former incarnations were... and most of those posting to this thread are/were on my just list already anyway.

I'm glad for those who have spent thousands of hours hacking and slashing around the realm for more than 10 years... and i thank those responsible for the most recent changes... we all know... "Change is the only contant."

If i wanted to... i could pay to pay one of those "other" games... but i don't and i won't. TFC was the game someone "turned me onto" back in... the summer of (long time ago)

I play TFC cause i find it better than wearing out the recliner zoning out in from the the electroinc mind control.. TV. or electronic babysitter.. or whatever..

**picks up the pennies**

[pitt]

Is there a reason we can't have the currently online mortal races too? I always found it interesting to see how many non human/elf there were :)

[Tynian]

It could be used to determine the total count of characters online, which I have been led to believe totally destroys PK, so that would be the reason why race counts vanished.

[Anonymous Mammal]

So are we now catering to the PKers or has TFC somehow gone pure-PK?

[Solaron]

I don't feel that most changes "cater" to any certain group or people.

Sometimes, changes DO nerf one group or another, or changes NEED to be implemented to nerf one group or another. PK has systematically been nerfed through the years, and PKers have complained and whined that Tynian was catering to the roleplayers and pacifists. Those limitations are still in effect.. removing this won't affect that at all. Just like he wasn't catering to pacifists, he's not catering to PKers. He's making a change that people seem to want and that may improve the game.

I'm sure if it turns out to be detrimental it will be changed back to the way it was. TFC survived for a long, long time without the stats page.

[Anonymous Mammal]

I hate to point this out, but TFC has had a stats page since before I started playing in late 97. Stats on it included how many mortals were online, races and classes. It did not include levels (none that I can recall). It was part of the previous format of TFC's web site.

You know, the one that had the kinda brownish-yellow pages and had the castle and dragon logo on it.

[Solaron]

Yeah, I remember the original page. I don't remember ever seeing the stats on it until the redesign in the end. That was more like 99-00 I thought... although time has blurred for me.

PK was alive enough back then that if the page was used as it is today - which I doubt - it had little impact. Maybe we can chalk that up to a larger newbie population.

The #s is the worst part... but I don't see what's wrong with just delaying the information by an hour or two. Maybe we can chalk that up to a larger newbie population.

Tynian, can we get some confirmation just for knowledge sake about when the stats page in the incarnation under fire was implemented?

- Sol

[Tynian]

A little late to the party, AM. This was discussed a while back, and there seemed to be a lot of support for removing it, and not a lot of voices screaming to leave it alone.

I believe there were stats that were updated "every so often." More or less real time stats did not spring into being until I wrote the current stats page.

[Anonymous Mammal]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm fine with it. I only wish I could still see the number of mortals online. I don't really care about the alignments, pk classifications, races or level ranges.

[Gwyrdain]

It's been nearly a month. I'm curious to know what the effect has been. Is the following information available?

Statistically more or less: (1) attacks, (2) sucessful attacks, (3) safe-sitting.