The Pit

[ink]

Make the friggen pit unavailable to those over level 5. I'm tired of putting things in it just to have naked shamans get all pit/wear all to look eq'd. Or level 20+ that are in a following and well-established take items intended for newbies. This is hurting those new players that honestly need the things, and more importantly, really frustrating me.

[Tynian]

I'd be willing to look at something like this.

What sort of restrictions make the most sense?

The main problem, of course, is that it's easy to create a new character to loot the pit, but I don't see a way around that.

[Anathema]

Make the friggen pit unavailable to those over level 5. I'm tired of putting things in it just to have naked shamans get all pit/wear all to look eq'd. Or level 20+ that are in a following and well-established take items intended for newbies. This is hurting those new players that honestly need the things, and more importantly, really frustrating me.

I agree that this is a huge problem. I think level 5 is a little low and would suggest raising the bar to level 10-15 as newbies still die in that range. Also, likely, as with most rules, people will figure out a way around it, like getting someone to create a newbie and get them eq.

Id suggest putting a level limit on the pit (somewhere between 10-20). Perhaps with the higher levels and even those above 20, allow them a limited number of times or items that they can take from the pit. Maybe make them have to pay mish in order to use the pit. I mean if you die I dont see why you shouldnt be allowed to take some items from the pit, but maybe have it cost you 50k or something for limited access. I havent thought it through, but something should be done.

Shuger

[Tokugawa]

Maybe make them have to pay mish in order to use the pit. I mean if you die I dont see why you shouldnt be allowed to take some items from the pit, but maybe have it cost you 50k or something for limited access.
Shuger

Wow.

Do newbies have 50k these days? I kinda doubt it.

-Tokugawa

[ink]

I'd say restrictions should be level 5 and under. By this point a newbie will have already played for at least a couple hours and been given plenty of opportunities to get situated.

Another (more complicated) idea in addition to the level restrictions would be to move the pit to the Safe Room above the Coliseum. A command similar to sacrifice would transport the desired item to the Pit. Having it be only accessible to newbies would benefit in a couple ways: 1) bigger players would have no idea (or interest) in whats in the pit, thus minimizing temptation to create a newbie and raid, and 2) Newbies would HAVE to walk right past it in order to XP in the coliseum, meaning true newbies will be more likely to find it and know what to do.

[ink]

Newbies can't be looted until they are level 10, so even if they die with their pit eq up until level 10, they aren't going to lose it. And from 10-20 People that CR for them can keep 3 items tops. I don't see any need for anyone over level 5 to get equipment from the pit.

[Anathema]

Wow.

Do newbies have 50k these days? I kinda doubt it.

-Tokugawa

You missed my point. For people over say 15-20 to use it they need to pay. Still free for Newbies Toku::up::

[Anathema]

Newbies can't be looted until they are level 10, so even if they die with their pit eq up until level 10, they aren't going to lose it. And from 10-20 People that CR for them can keep 3 items tops. I don't see any need for anyone over level 5 to get equipment from the pit.

Fundamentally I agree with you, however are we just providing incentive for people not to put stuff in the pit and for FLI(s) to hold eq they might normally not if they think they will have to fully eq their followers when they die...

Shuger

[Katrana]

I agree that something needs to be done. I'd restrict it to level 10 and under.

I'd be willing to look at something like this.

What sort of restrictions make the most sense?

The main problem, of course, is that it's easy to create a new character to loot the pit, but I don't see a way around that.

Well, they could but it would be swapping if given to the char that needed it. Perhaps, you could put a timer on the ip as well. TFC monitors the ips, as it's reported what ip you last logged in from. Perhaps make it so a newbie you create could only loot the pit 1 time per week. If you create another newbie and already looted the pit that week...tough luck.

Another idea would be to perhaps put a flag on the items put in pit. Like how you used to have gg'ed flags, make it so that way when a piece of gear goes in the pit, it gets like PIT put on it, and only chars level 10 and under could wear it, if someone else tried it's instant DEATH. (Okay, maybe not death, but I'm evil, what do you expect.)

Just throwing the idea out. The first idea could be tough on those just starting as they might not get the class they like right off, or perhaps got some insight to characters and need to reroll to better themselves. If you know a bit about the net, you can get around the ip thing. Just trying to think of some creative solutions!

[wish]

I do not agree that the pit should be restricted to certain levels. I am sorry that it annoys Ink, but I believe that the pit equipment should remain a free and open resource to all, no matter what ones use for that equipment may be.

I do not even believe that it is a huge problem that people who are not newbies take equipment from the pit. Nine times out of ten, when I look in the pit it is full. Reboots are more likely to be the cause of it being empty than naked shamans looting it. Only single classed shamans do that anyways, since multiclassed shamans have better things to do.

I do like the idea of a command to magically transport equipment to the pit. It would mean a lot more stuff goes in it. Other muds I have played had this functionality, and it was very, very useful.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[Hiro]

I do not agree that the pit should be restricted to certain levels. I am sorry that it annoys Ink, but I believe that the pit equipment should remain a free and open resource to all, no matter what ones use for that equipment may be.

I do not even believe that it is a huge problem that people who are not newbies take equipment from the pit. Nine times out of ten, when I look in the pit it is full. Reboots are more likely to be the cause of it being empty than naked shamans looting it. Only single classed shamans do that anyways, since multiclassed shamans have better things to do.

I do like the idea of a command to magically transport equipment to the pit. It would mean a lot more stuff goes in it. Other muds I have played had this functionality, and it was very, very useful.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

To steal a line from my Light friends, quoted for truth.

Hiro
Procurator of the Nashite Magi
New Aura, Same Great Deals

[Anonymous Mammal]

I do not agree that the pit should be restricted to certain levels. I am sorry that it annoys Ink, but I believe that the pit equipment should remain a free and open resource to all, no matter what ones use for that equipment may be.

I do not even believe that it is a huge problem that people who are not newbies take equipment from the pit. Nine times out of ten, when I look in the pit it is full. Reboots are more likely to be the cause of it being empty than naked shamans looting it. Only single classed shamans do that anyways, since multiclassed shamans have better things to do.

I do like the idea of a command to magically transport equipment to the pit. It would mean a lot more stuff goes in it. Other muds I have played had this functionality, and it was very, very useful.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black ConclaveI also agree with Wish.

[Katrana]

I do not agree that the pit should be restricted to certain levels. I am sorry that it annoys Ink, but I believe that the pit equipment should remain a free and open resource to all, no matter what ones use for that equipment may be.

I do not even believe that it is a huge problem that people who are not newbies take equipment from the pit. Nine times out of ten, when I look in the pit it is full. Reboots are more likely to be the cause of it being empty than naked shamans looting it. Only single classed shamans do that anyways, since multiclassed shamans have better things to do.

I do like the idea of a command to magically transport equipment to the pit. It would mean a lot more stuff goes in it. Other muds I have played had this functionality, and it was very, very useful.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

I do not agree. I've seen too many people who go in there and pull out items and sell them.

I do like the idea of a command to transport the stuff to pit.

Perhaps have two seperate pits then. One for those under 5 (stick it in newbieville) and one for those over 5 leave it where it's at. Create the groovy command for the pit for those under 5, another one for those over 6 and see how much gear goes where. I'd be happy with that, I think the others would as well as their beloved pit that everyone can grab from would be there and those of us who like to see gear for newbies when a newbie logs on would be there.

Kat

[Solaron]

I do not agree. I've seen too many people who go in there and pull out items and sell them.

I do like the idea of a command to transport the stuff to pit.

Perhaps have two seperate pits then. One for those under 5 (stick it in newbieville) and one for those over 5 leave it where it's at. Create the groovy command for the pit for those under 5, another one for those over 6 and see how much gear goes where. I'd be happy with that, I think the others would as well as their beloved pit that everyone can grab from would be there and those of us who like to see gear for newbies when a newbie logs on would be there.

Kat

I like the idea... not sure of the logistics of it, or where it would stand in the long line of 'stuff to do', but I do like the thought.

[Anonymous Mammal]

Perhaps have two seperate pits then. One for those under 5 (stick it in newbieville) and one for those over 5 leave it where it's at. Create the groovy command for the pit for those under 5, another one for those over 6 and see how much gear goes where. I'd be happy with that, I think the others would as well as their beloved pit that everyone can grab from would be there and those of us who like to see gear for newbies when a newbie logs on would be there.This is a compromise I could go for. Although, it doesn't give anything for those of exactly level 5.::whistle::

[Elladan]

This is a compromise I could go for. Although, it doesn't give anything for those of exactly level 5.::whistle::

Sure it does, the motivation to reach level 6.

[Hiro]

I like the idea... not sure of the logistics of it, or where it would stand in the long line of 'stuff to do', but I do like the thought.

Works for me as well. I seem to remember from a past life that 'donate' in stock envy ccode would send eq to the pit from anywhere in the world. Being old my memory may not be that accurate.

Hiro

[Katrana]

This is a compromise I could go for. Although, it doesn't give anything for those of exactly level 5.::whistle::

Well 4 and under-new pit, or 5 and up-old pit ::up::

[pitt]

maybe restrictions from excessive looting would help? Free access if you've died in the last 30 minutes, otherwise you can only take 3 or so items per rl hour.

> get all pit
>
> You get a bright ball of blue light from the donation pit.
> You get a magic mushroom from the donation pit.
> You get a bag of pitt hide from the donation pit.
> A force prevents you from taking a Mourning Star from the pit. You have taken enough for now.

[Thor]

Perhaps have two seperate pits then. One for those under 5 (stick it in newbieville) and one for those over 5 leave it where it's at. Create the groovy command for the pit for those under 5, another one for those over 6 and see how much gear goes where. I'd be happy with that, I think the others would as well as their beloved pit that everyone can grab from would be there and those of us who like to see gear for newbies when a newbie logs on would be there.


I really like this idea as well.

maybe restrictions from excessive looting would help? Free access if you've died in the last 30 minutes, otherwise you can only take 3 or so items per rl hour.


My main objection to this would be: If you're naked anyway and the restriction is death within the last 30 minutes....k self.

[Tokugawa]

Make the friggen pit unavailable to those over level 5. I'm tired of putting things in it just to have naked shamans get all pit/wear all to look eq'd.

I think we need less code like this. Too much code complexity makes things confusing. And really, is this such a problem?

I don't think so.

If you do not want someone to take something from the pit. Or you have a problem with how someone might use it. Do not put something in the pit.

I agree that it would be nice however to have a command that can pit something from afar.

-Tokugawa

[wish]

Katrana said:

I do not agree. I've seen too many people who go in there and pull out items and sell them.


My earlier point of "that is their perogative" still stands. The gear is there for everyone to do with as they please. Equipment put in the pit are public donations, and as such should not have strings attached. After all, if a newbie sold it rather than used it, would it then be okay? Why is a newbies use of the freely donated equipment somehow more justified than someone else? There are other, more fair ways, to keep newbies playing.

As for the idea of two pits, I still do not really see the need. There is literally tons of leveling gear floating around. Most of it gets sacced. If a command were implemented to automatically send eq to the pit rather than having it sacced with corpses, the pit would be so full at all times that you would have to implement code to prevent getting spammed off the mud when you look in the pit.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[Tynian]

Katrana said:



My earlier point of "that is their perogative" still stands. The gear is there for everyone to do with as they please. Equipment put in the pit are public donations, and as such should not have strings attached. After all, if a newbie sold it rather than used it, would it then be okay? Why is a newbies use of the freely donated equipment somehow more justified than someone else? There are other, more fair ways, to keep newbies playing.

As for the idea of two pits, I still do not really see the need. There is literally tons of leveling gear floating around.

In this particular case, Wish has almost single-handedly changed my mind about restricting the pit, especially when I think about the rather complex suggestions that are being proposed to "solve" the problem. Tokugawa also raises an interesting point about coding complexity. For something like this, it just doesn't seem quite "worth it."

I briefly played a mud with a donation room. Unwanted equipment from anywhere in the world could be sent there. I don't have any strong feelings about this one way or another.

I'm going to leave the pit alone. Thanks for the suggestion, though. It generated some interesting thoughts.

[Furnock]

I do not agree that the pit should be restricted to certain levels.


I completely agree with Wish. It's an open pit. If YOU intend YOUR spare gear for an intended audience, then by all means, alms to the poor.
Once you drop it in the pit, it's fair game.
Heck, it's fair game while it's on your person.

[Avarice]

I'm all for ink's basic idea here (gasp). Its irritating enough to have naked shamans lets not be equipping them with cheap da sets while we're at it.

Here's my idea with regard to the command to auto-fill pit from anywhere and pit restrictions etc etc.

Make a command called DONATE. When equipment is donated, it is automatically flagged as such. This flag prevents anyone level 15 and up from getting that eq out of the pit(or maybe prevents them from wearing it). In addition, if possible make it so that a sub-level 15 cannot give the equipment away or drop it for a certain # of days (or levels, or whatever), so to prevent people from having a buddy log a newbie and hand them equipment that is donate-flagged. If you want it, u gotta want it enough to hang onto it at least for a little while. This probably won't prevent all abuse but it should at least make things more difficult than its worth for higher levels to equip out of the pit. Of course, people could still manualy put eq in the pit and avoid the flag, but it'll actually take more effort to do so. K now tear it apart folks.

[Jashon]

I don't think the pit should be level restricted either.

*But* I am all for having another one that is level restricted, perhaps in the newbie common area that eq could be 'donated' to.

[Anima]

Why can't we just leave it the way it is, not everyone takes gear from the pit. Alot of people spend time randoming after a death/looted/pk and for others it is not so easy. Why enter a code that might lessen the will to play for those unable to gather eq well by themselves . People comment about player activity and overall players, why do something that might render more players to "hang up the towel"

[Pol]

The Pit is the Pit - when you put something there, it's commonly known that *anyone* can take the item for *any* reason. Etiquette sort of dictates that lower levels get first pick, but beyond that, as a donor, it's assumed that the equipment you put there could go to a newbie, a high level, an enemy, etc. I don't think this is necessarily bad.

There is a problem with the pit in the grander scheme of things, however. The issue lies not so much with who takes things out, but what gets put in.

IMHO, the value of things put in the pit is far too high (I know...hypocrisy coming from Mr Donation Pit Stockboy :) ) and this cuts the value of equipment on the whole and contributes to stagnating the economy. It's not uncommon to see useful 3's, 2/2's, even 2/3's and 3/3's in the pit - items that at one time would have fetched a decent price. This, of course, is a better alternative to holding on to these items and getting fined, so I can hardly blame the donors (then there's that whole generousity thing too :) ).

However, the end result is that a character looking for eq is faced with the choice of buying an item or getting the same or better for free with a little patience. On balance, that's a pretty obvious choice. And, if no one buys, no one sells, and the flow of gear stalls as a result.

Perhaps we could restrict what items get donated in some way? For example, putting a 3 or 2/2 or better in the pit generates a "This item is far too valuable to just GIVE away!" message. Or have locate bids source items from the pit similarly to giving a good item to a shoppie ("The Pit thanks you for your generous gift!").

Barring that, maybe we can just excercise some reasonable restraint individually such that good equipment remains available, but in quantities that prevent the value of such items from plummeting. Maybe a protocol after finding a decent or good item such as looking for an appropriate sub-15 or sub-20 to give the item to first, then auctioning, then either store or keep in inventory for a time and try again or even...*gulp*....saccing if there's no interest or space.

For my part, I'm going to be stocking the pit with 2's, 2/1's and 3's at most, but anything larger I'll be gifting directly or giving to the following (or even...god forbid...selling or trading??!).

This is just one piece of a solution for an agreed upon problem of a stagnant economy (at least, given threads on the subject in the past it seems to be generally agreed upon). Other things will of course have to happen to make it a complete solution, but I feel this idea is at least worth consideration.

Cheers,

Pol O'Song

[jaeden]

I've logged in quite a few times over the last two weeks and I can say with complete honesty that I've never seen less than 15 mod-magic + items in the pit on any of those log ins aside from the one right after a reboot. I think this issue isn't really worth turning attention from the other discussions currently on the table in the Forums.

[Dundrave]

I can see your frusteration... Ink... but this is a silly measure... what is gained? Nothing..... I don't think it will aid the game. Naked people need gear..... such is life.. that is the pit.

[Gregar]

There's one idea of Pol's I'd love to see, which would help increase the value of items, make it so that if someone puts an item into the pit that someone is trying to locate using mish the it goes poof and gets sold to the locat(er... or?)

anywho, this would mena ppl could bid on stuff they really want or need

[morgaine]

attatch a special inventory flag to anything looted from the pit. If the item is dropped it dissappears, or if the character dies it dissappears. What are you loosing if it came from the pit in the frist place. This way no character can loot the pit and then sell the items. Maybe the items could just become No Drop and Inventory flagged, then they would only be taken by people that need them.

-morgaine

[Avarice]

Thats horribly abuseable. Imagine if someone took their crazy set and put it in and out of the pit to gain inventory flags on all their items...now they have a 50dmg set that's all inventory flagged/nodrop w/e.

[morgaine]

wow, i never thought of it that way... to bad its not that easy huh? lol good point avarice.

[jaeden]

just a little update here.

I've logged in for an hour or more each day this week and I've yet to see the pit below 25 items.

I think we're all doing a fine job stocking it enough so that regulating it isn't entirely necessary. Nicely done, btw. It's good to see we're all working toward a common goal.

[Tay]

why not group the items, have 2 pits yes, one for metals, the other for non metals, sometimes i get spammed at looking in the pit, it would also be easier for low levels/newbies to get an item out of the bottom of the pit easier, ie.instead of typing "g 17.ring pit" and getting a ring mail helmet, not every newbie knows this...just an idea

[Gwyrdain]

Total agreement here. Have been pondering the same for a while. It's nuts as it is and even an 'area file' type fix would help.

[Roac]

It would seem that someone has decided to solve this so-called "problem" on their own by periodically purging the pit of all its contents. I don't know who you are but I hope your actions are correctly perceived as "picking on low levels" and that you get your just deserts.

[boromir]

Greetings,

Why not have two pits?
The regular pit is still there and people can get stuff out and put stuff in no matter what level.
The second pit will be located in the room over the coliseum.
But Wait!!! How does it get filled you ask? By items placed in the current pit with the idea being that items with certain attributes would get 'transferred' to the 'Newbie Pit'. Items that would help toward levels or xp etc etc.
So the code implementation would be straightforward.
What about purging you ask... the same rules for purging that exist now would exist for the 'newbie' pit.
Would all items get transferred over if they meet the criteria?
No, just a sizable percentage would since there are people who would need those items despite they're having leveled past level 5.
THe mix of items to be found in the pit? ..
That would be best determined by Tynian since he has the best feel for what items would be the most beneficial.
tge timing etc of the transfers? .. again tynian would be the best for determining this.
What if the 'Newbie Pit' gets cleaned and sacced by some jerk who wants to feel important by making the game tougher?
There are a number of different solutions to that issue and Tynian is the one who can make and enforce the solution he feels would be best.
As for the existing pit, why change anything?
Newbies will have access to a pit with gear which 99% of the jerks cant get to.

Your thoughts? ::up::

[Anonymous Mammal]

Newbies will have access to a pit with gear which 99% of the jerks cant get to.

Your thoughts? ::up::To solve the problem, eliminate the jerks. No need to code anything. No need to edit any area files.

[Furnock]

To solve the problem, eliminate the jerks. No need to code anything. No need to edit any area files.

Heh, I can see it.

<JERK> flag replacing the <KILLER> flag.

The cityguard yells, (in common) "Furnock<JERK> is casting invis on shopkeepers, racial guards and cutting off pony-tails!"

### Furnock has been force quit for being a jerk.::woot::

Roac, try not to be too upset about an empty pit. My soul is one and I'm completely happy with it.
While I'm not the one purging the pit, it needs to be done. It's natural.
Also, each one of those things in the pit is worth at the very least 1 gold.
The donating person could have chosen 1 gold or to donate.
The person sorting the pit has the choice to re-donate or take 1 gold.
Taking the entire pit may be a bit piggy but it can be turned in to a couple peices of bread. And really, who wants hungry newbies? Hungry newbies means Sally Struthers will have to be sloughed off a flatbed to raise money for them. They are raising their own money. Kudos to them!.

[Belsambar]

Good idea, but what constitutes a "jerk"? If we got rid of everyone people thought were Jerks, well, there goes Orpik, Piter, Me, Ink, and about 10 or so other players.....it is a nice thought, but hard to put into action....especially since everyone has a slightly different definition of what makes someone a jerk.

[Anonymous Mammal]

Ok, we'll hold a meeting in Prague and vote on a definitive definition of "jerk" (noun). Then we can delete anyone who meets that definition. I'm sure there will be a lot of public outrage no matter what the definition turns out to be. The world will just have to live with it.

A few less jerks in the world is not a bad thing.

[Roac]

Taking the entire pit may be a bit piggy but it can be turned in to a couple peices [sic] of bread. And really, who wants hungry newbies?

If it actually turns out to be newbies sac'ing the pit for bread, I will gladly cede the point. If, however, it turns out to be an experienced player (perhaps not intentionally, but ultimately) screwing our already limited quantity of true newbies, then my warning cry may not have been in vain.

The points I'm trying to articulate are as follows:

I understand and accept that the activity I decry above is not (to my knowledge) a technical violation of any rule; however, it does violate the intent (IMO) of policy 3a, rule 2 -- Harassing newbies [...] is forbidden.
Pit purging is ultimately a self-destructive activity as doing so will have a negative effect on newbie retention. As we've discussed here previously -- without fresh blood this great game we enjoy so much, will ultimately cease to exist.
We have forums to discuss things like the "problems with the pit." Therefore, let's use them to appropriately analyze issues and openly debate solutions with the goals in mind of the "best interest and long-term health" of the game. Don't take matters into your own hands.

[Tay]

Ok, we'll hold a meeting in Prague and vote on a definitive definition of "jerk" (noun). Then we can delete anyone who meets that definition. I'm sure there will be a lot of public outrage no matter what the definition turns out to be. The world will just have to live with it.

A few less jerks in the world is not a bad thing.


i say get rid of that Tay jerk! (mutters to self about what a jerk tay is) :>

[Furnock]

[QUOTE=Roac]If it actually turns out to be newbies sac'ing the pit for bread, I will gladly cede the point. (oops I screwed up quoting again)

Refer to <Jerk> Flag. I have one and was speaking tongue in cheek. I respect and acknowledge your concern for the newbies. However, I do not think 3 pages of pit junk will have that great an impact on newbie retention. I have my own view on why people don't stay and that should be posted elsewhere.

I also do not see an empty pit as a malicous act. I see that someone went OCD on cleaning things up. It was messy.
To me harrassment would be taking it out of the pit telling the newbie what it is and saccing it right there. "Oh you wanted that? I'm so clumsy." "I meant to type give item newb not sacrifice item"
Clearing the pit makes room for more items. While not an active player right now, I do notice that there are plenty of people refilling it. I spend most my guild sitting time there. It wont' stay empty long.

I believe the spirit of policy 3a, rule 2 was intended to prevent higher levels from impeding the natural progress of a significantly lower level character. With a realm full of mobs dropping randomly generated items, the Pit is a mere percentage of what is out there and available. Clearing 50-75 +10 mvs or +5 hp items is not going to drive newbies or anyone from the game.
To me Pit dependancy will inhibit the need to constantly go out and challenge oneself to gain additional and better gear. It's close to domestication. If I have a pit to go to everyday that I can use to switch my gear out for little to no effort, where is the impetus to go out and earn it myself? Like animials to a trough. They will always to there for food and eventually forget how to go out and seek it themselves.
What I fear more than pit purging is pit stuffing. I look in the pit and regularly see just enough items to gear a newbie, complete with war banner. That should fly just a couple red flags.

[Belsambar]

I don't think so. Its pretty hard to get a 3dmg out of pit, and it really doesn't take long before you learn that you want (or in most cases) need to wear +dmg in order to be able to xp efficiently.

[jachick]

Another (more complicated) idea in addition to the level restrictions would be to move the pit to the Safe Room above the Coliseum. A command similar to sacrifice would transport the desired item to the Pit. Having it be only accessible to newbies would benefit in a couple ways: 1) bigger players would have no idea (or interest) in whats in the pit, thus minimizing temptation to create a newbie and raid, and 2) Newbies would HAVE to walk right past it in order to XP in the coliseum, meaning true newbies will be more likely to find it and know what to do.

In many other muds this is implemented as DONATE.