Solaron's Next Great Idea (or not? :p)

[Solaron]

Alright guys, here's a few of my ideas. I lump them together because, well, I can. Feel free to pick and choose.

First and foremost, read the other thread about changing damage gear and "god gear" (as Jaerith put it, I believe) for some more insight on that aspect. I support it, as you'll read.

I also feel that PK is an integral part of TFC. We shouldn't be a mud where some people PK. We are a PK mud. That's just the way it is.... however, we differ from many muds in our application of the PK ability. Many muds do not let you loot the entire corpse, or any of it at all. On those that do, it's often incredibly (note: TOO) easy to regear, so the death means nothing. However, as a character amasses more skill and gear, the chances of him/her dying in a PK steadily decrease. Few people leave safe when these PKers are on... and when people safesit, they often get bored (except for Boromir.. and Bels... and Aze. Crap, they're all mages who probably just portalled around and made me THINK they were safesitting!) and eventually log off. Here's my proposal:

Introduce PK and LPK areas. It's a simple idea: Please take the time to read through it fully and think on it before you give a "Yes" or "Hell, no!" answer, okay?

All hometowns would be LPK areas. The L stands for Limited, btw. So... you can be summoned, sure. You won't lose any gear though; instead, you'll get a trophy. A shrunken head? Who knows. Something for bragging rights. These will be unique. You can't just kill someone 80 times for 80 of them. Maybe we can have a trophy rank. Maybe we can use them for quests or restrings. Who knows? The point is: Pkers can still PK, newbies can still learn about PK (albeit in a safer environment) and yet people can still XP.

Aside from hometowns, a few other basic zones would be LPK. Perhaps 1 or 2 XP zones per level range. Delving, WM, lizards, maybe TP, a few connecting zones. This would allow people to level relatively unmolested aside from the occasional trophy attempt.

On to the PK zones! These zones would be full PK. When you are in these zones, you are able to be fully killed and looted. When you're attacked in these zones, you are able to be attacked anywhere for a short time period, even in a LPK zone (similar to a killer flag) so that you can't just walk 1 room away and laugh, although that would be kinda funny. What is the draw? These would be the zones with the best limited gear (Candlespyre, Plantation, etc) for starters. They would also feature other benefits. Perhaps double experience, increased gold on mobs, etc. This would encourage the lucky and/or adventurous to level faster and earn more, etc... if they're willing to take the risks.

People would still be lootable if they die to a mob. MobKILLING someone would be the same as it is now; legal in range, illegal out.

I think this would help a lot of people who would normally level but log off when PKers come on. They would be able to stay and XP instead. And as the XP zones fill up, the only option is to head into the PK areas... and as these levellers level, gear up and skill up, they too will need to brave these areas for the better gear or items held.

There, that's the idea. I'll throw the next idea in my "Total Package Idea Awesomeness Roxzorz" out later, but ruminate on that for a while.

[mars]

Solaron,
Great idea, but i think this would be too confusing knowing what is LPK and what is PK. But, it would eventually be easy to learn and would be a good for the realm, less down time! It would make it easy if HT's were the only LPK.


Mars Crazy.::brood::

[Solaron]

Yeah, LPK and PK would be confusing to begin with, but any new changes are going to be confusing. I think everyone would be surprised about some of the things we take for granted as being true or hard coded that are nothing more than superstition, and vice versa.

Either way, great point Mars!

[Jashon]

Interesting idea-- Not being an avid PKer myself I, of course, support the idea. But while I don't really like pking myself--I think it is one of the most fun parts of the game. And I would agree hometowns should be LPK (if such a thing were implemented) I would like to see very few other areas listed as LPK.

[Solaron]

I would say that there should be some -few- zones that are LPK that people could go to to XP. Nobody would ever be forced to guildsit. They could still mobdie and be looted, have a bad recall or teleport or who knows what else, so it's more beneficial than safesitting to a PKer and it still lets the non-PKer get out there and level.

[Jashon]

Who ever knew Sol cared so much for other people? You're getting soft in your old age. See what getting married (and having a kid does to you)!?

*lick Ink*

[Jashon]

And I suppose it is a good point. Having another option rather than guildsitting *is* a good idea.

[Tynian]

I would say that there should be some -few- zones that are LPK that people could go to to XP. Nobody would ever be forced to guildsit. They could still mobdie and be looted, have a bad recall or teleport or who knows what else, so it's more beneficial than safesitting to a PKer and it still lets the non-PKer get out there and level.

Playing devil's advocate, why not just let people set themselves as PK or no PK, like other great games do, then? Just a flag, togglable or not.

The suggestion seems something of a cop-out... another step to water down a PK mud... but maybe that's just me. :-/

[Solaron]

Playing devil's advocate, why not just let people set themselves as PK or no PK, like other great games do, then? Just a flag, togglable or not.

The suggestion seems something of a cop-out... another step to water down a PK mud... but maybe that's just me. :-/

Well, fully PK vs NOPK is straying about as far from a PK mud as you can get. These days, very few people seem to really WANT the full-blown PK crazy realm that TFC has always been. I feel the PK vs LPK zone idea straddles the line fairly well, providing for both ends of the spectrum without catering to either side too much. TFC should always have that risk and danger of a loot, whether its PK or mobdeath. Players should feel the need to occasionally meander into PK zones for something, and in turn put themselves at risk. That's why I like the idea.

I feel the merits outweigh any potential flaws by far, especially when compared to a PK vs Pacifist flag.

Thanks for the questions!

[jaerith]

These zones, if they were to be implemented as "LPK" would of course need to be known and they would have to have a very SMALL xp range. Nothing like Wintermeet(where one can level from 18 - 40). Fact is, TFC is a PK Mud and always has been. you start skimming the already small pool of potential targets down for the pk crowd, you'll end up losing more people.

It's a bit of thin ice.

[Belsambar]

So.....what I suggest, is make LPK a room flag. ANd then, you can alter how things work on a wide variety of scales....certain 'pk zones' could be puzzle zones, where the zone may be dotted with LPK rooms....so in any given zone, you have the chance at complete loss, and the chance of a humiliating deafeat, but not terrible. Depending on your luck. And, while I know few of the God+'s have the TIME to reflag 20 rooms out of every zone, or whatever they felt like doing at a whim, maybe it could be something that can be set, ot toggled if a god+ is bored and wants to alter reality some. Some way to randomize it slightly to prevent people from going 'Ok, kill me here...Ok, full pk....here? Lpk, here?....'

Not that anyone who could memorize the entire mud as PK or LPK isn't someone of admirable patience. That'd take a HELL of a lot of effort to figure out which random rooms might be just a trophy room if you make it to it...and which, if you turn and fight in THIS room, means you lost it all because you gambled.

My reasoning behind this is the possibility that it might make people even MORE likely to venture out, or, heavens forbit, stand and fight when they otherwise might not if it crosses their mind 'Hey...this room might be lpk. Screw it, I've got half a shot, let's try to take this dude down!'

And as they get more precticed, and maybe even successful, luck or skill, eventually they'll be able to join the scene more and more. And perhaps enjoy it.

I don't know, just a suggestion ;)

[wish]

I think this is a very interesting idea. I have to disagree with Tynian, that it does not equate to toggling characters PK or NO PK. Solarons idea provides an expanded net of safety to certain low-level areas, without compromising the total PK aspect of the game.

With that said, I don't like the idea. First of all, its a major code overhaul, not just to the interactive code, but potentially adding a flag to every room that you want to participate in this schema. Secondly, why do we need it? Is everyone dissatisfied with the current state of the mud?
I am not. I think the code is pretty damned good as it is.

I have come to the realization that the problem may not be the mud. The problem is us. By "us" I mean those of us who are between the levels of 40 and 50. Especially the 50's. We get this big, and we expect the game to continue on as it was during the trip to get here, with challenge, and suspense, and high adrenaline as we PK or get PKed.

Isn't it disappointing when you essentially win the game? Many of us don't want to start over, because we hate leveling, blah blah blah.

So here is my counterproposal, Solaron, because I am already pretty sure yours isn't going to fly. Limited Pk (i.e. limited looting) has been proposed numerous times before, including by me, and it never went anywhere.

1. Force those who reach level 40 to either immort, or triple, or purge.
2. Force those who reach level 50 to either immort, or purge.

Talk amongst yourselves, I am holding an umbrella, so the tomatos won't hit me.

Wish, Foul Sepiod of the Black Conclave

[Solaron]

Meh, this happens in most games, MMRPGs included; the high-end content is lacking. You're right, Wish.... many level 50 players reach a plateau where it's amazingly difficult to do anything to increase their gear, they will very rarely be in danger of dying unless they do something incredibly stupid, etc. Boredom sets in.

I don't think the "immort or delete" mentality will work either. Too many 50s, too few Immortal slots. Something needs to be done to add more for a 50 to do.

You're definitely right... it's not the mud code, it's us. It's our preferences and how we feel things should go. I'm not one to suggest an idea that is going to screw one group over and leave another uber powerful, but something does need to happen. That said, there are many things that could be done, but many of them are also tons of code changes.

I wouldn't imagine that it would be that difficult to create an entire area flag, or one that would affect all rooms w/o having to retroactively go back and flag each one as LPK. If so, surely it isn't that hard to automate the process. While "limited looting" ideas have been posted before, this is a compromise of both. Full PK will be alive and kicking, and only in those few LPK zones would there be a limit.

I'm not content to just say 'We are the ones that need to change our perspective, not TFC code.' We've been trying that for a while now and it's not getting us anywhere.

Either way, thanks for the input. I do agree that my idea has little chance of flying, and I definitely agree with your points on the current end-game. I just have to disagree with what can be done! Thanks!

[wish]

You are welcome, Solaron. I enjoy reading your ideas, as they are usually very creative.

Yes, there are limited immortal spots. So, here is how you solve that problem, and give 50's something to do: make the acquisition of immortality more competitive amongst the level 50's (and 40's) that qualify.

This could be turned into a long term competition, with more difficult and specific goals than currently exist for immorting, ending in perhaps a combat to the death, reverse Highlander style. If you choose not to participate in the immort competition, or you lose, you get sent to pasture. Tough dohicky, go start another character.

Right now EVERYONE is immortal. Why? So people can keep stroking their egos with the same "successful" character year after year?

Everyone keep in mind that the squishy proposing this is a level 50 who has not had more than a passing interest in immorting, and would probably not win such a competition.

Wish

[Solaron]

I see your point and agree that the system would work, but it would anger just as many people as some of my more "out there" ideas, including a pwipe. People wouldn't want to need to start a new character; part of the enjoyment for some, myself included (although I would reroll), is the ability to log on and see people you know and have known in their personas for a long time.

Seeing Grismal log on recently, for example, meant more than if someone with a different name had logged on and said 'Hey, I'm Grismal.'. Would've been cooler if it was the high-level Grismal.

Still, I do agree. I just feel that there must be something else we can do to keep the high-levels happy. And we also can't ignore our lack of growth.... it was more fun to reroll when you had lots of people at low levels and people to kill at low levels, etc.

Maybe some sort of permanent battle to join? Hm... I'm straying off-topic!

[orpik]

People can spar if they are too afraid to leave safe, or they can ask for ammq's etc which allow them out of safe.

If people can exp without fear of loss there will no longer be much of a challenge.

I would be infavor of limiting how much a person could lose if pkd by someone much larger and or they were a pacifist.

Mind you I don't think limiting what a person loses will do much as people tend to not want to risk losing anything.

As to trophies, we have those, steaks and bags of corpses in addition to the stats that people can see when they do whois on others. I am just leary of trophies worth anything as it would be ripe for abuse ie ink logs on and kills 3 of his brother's chars, then his brother logs on and kills 3 of ink's chars.

[Solaron]

People can spar if they are too afraid to leave safe, or they can ask for ammq's etc which allow them out of safe.

If people can exp without fear of loss there will no longer be much of a challenge.

Sure. People CAN spar. TFC has the functionality that appeals to certain people, which is great. Not everyone looks at it from solely a PK point of view. They don't leave safe purely to PK, regardless of whether they lose gear or not. Many of them can't even level up because of it.

This issue wasn't as bad when the mud was more populated, but now, if you're out of safe and a PKer is on, chances are you are the target. It's just that bad. Asking for AMMQs is a bandaid solution for an issue with an underlying problem; I'm not saying it's the mud, I'm saying it's the demographic we're looking to cater to.

I would be infavor of limiting how much a person could lose if pkd by someone much larger and or they were a pacifist.

Mind you I don't think limiting what a person loses will do much as people tend to not want to risk losing anything.

I agree. And what I'm trying to do here is find out what WILL work, not a solution that won't do much but SOUNDS like a compromise.

As to trophies, we have those, steaks and bags of corpses in addition to the stats that people can see when they do whois on others. I am just leary of trophies worth anything as it would be ripe for abuse ie ink logs on and kills 3 of his brother's chars, then his brother logs on and kills 3 of ink's chars.

As I stated in my first post, each of these trophies would be unique. You wouldn't be able to abuse them. Ink could get a few from his brother, his brother could get a few from him, and its over and done with. It's not like he could display them proudly, since everyone would know anyway. You could do the same thing with all of your brothers, and you've got more than he has - but I'm not going to assume that you OR he is going to try and abuse it in that way. And even if you did... 3, 4 or 5 extra trophies won't really matter, in the long run.

The point is that right now as it is, you're not getting any kills. Nobody really is. You might get the AFK or naked kill here and there, but people live in fear. They'll safesit for hours, or log off until the coast is clear, just to ensure their safety. They'll keep an eye on the TFC stats page to see how many players appear, just in case someone might be invis to them. If we remove some of the need for that fear and get people out more, it will increase activity AND still increase the chance that these people, who would NORMALLY be safesitting, mobdie, have a bad recall or venture into a standard PK zone for the bonus experience.

[orpik]

I think the problem is that people don't have enough incentive to play as they reach lvl 40 or 50.

Let people reroll and gain unique skills etc. Right now I log in and my options are
1) spend an hour popping limiteds that will purge in a week and that I will likely not get the chance to use before then
2) find people to kill before they realize I am on
3)help people exp
4) chat

Give us something to do and we will play more. allowing for exping without threat of pk gives big characters LESS to do not more and means people will reach 40 or 50 sooner and have nothing to do sooner. Most of the action happens when people are exping up, it gives pkers soemthing to do and expers. So there is no point in doing away with risky exp, bc honestly that is the most fun thing in the game, without it there really is nothing left since as you know, there is nothing to do as a lvl 50 but pk.
(i know there are lq quests, mobm, etc... I am speaking long term for the majority as those things don't appeal to the majority over a very long span of time.)

Part of why people sit in safe all the time is bc of the pkers, the other part is there isnt anything to do. For example if I log on and there is no one out of safe, there is no reason for me to leave safe. But, if I had something to do, and people knew i was say in dream realm etc, they might dare exping knowing it takes a long time to make it through that zone etc... but If I have nothing to do but wait for them to leave safe... of course they aren't going to leave safe.

[Solaron]

I think the problem is that people don't have enough incentive to play as they reach lvl 40 or 50.

I'll agree with you there. As TFC gets more level 50s, we need more high level content to keep up. However, I still think that a standard reroll system will only delay the problem. Eventually we'll have people at max level again, and then we'll have even more powerful characters bored. I feel we need activities geared towards high levels, not another level grind.

Let people reroll and gain unique skills etc. Right now I log in and my options are
1) spend an hour popping limiteds that will purge in a week and that I will likely not get the chance to use before then
2) find people to kill before they realize I am on
3)help people exp
4) chat


Neither you nor many of the other big PKers (myself included, when I was mortal) fostered an environment that allowed for anything else. When someone left safe, we would actively hunt them back into safe rooms. When they safesat, we'd insult them. They either leave, ignore us, or leave safe only to be hunter or killed. If we get to the point where people know they can actually leave safe, even if it's only in 4 or 5 zones, player activity will increase.

Right now, if there's 5 people on and you're on, most or all of them are in safe. If the PK/LPK system were in, 3 or 4 would be out xping. Since you're on, they'd probably be in LPK zones. But they can still mobdie and be looted or have a bad recall/teleport, or be killed for trophies/reward. And as player activity increases, these zones will be too full to do anything with. People will be forced to head out occasionally into the PK zones for better XP or just to get away from full areas. I know many people would prefer the risk AND the reward of double experience to sitting in a hometown killing cityguards or something similar.

Give us something to do and we will play more. allowing for exping without threat of pk gives big characters LESS to do not more and means people will reach 40 or 50 sooner and have nothing to do sooner. Most of the action happens when people are exping up, it gives pkers soemthing to do and expers. So there is no point in doing away with risky exp, bc honestly that is the most fun thing in the game, without it there really is nothing left since as you know, there is nothing to do as a lvl 50 but pk.
(i know there are lq quests, mobm, etc... I am speaking long term for the majority as those things don't appeal to the majority over a very long span of time.)

I feel that allowing for some small amount of exping without threat of pk gives big characters LESS to do NOW and MORE to do in the FUTURE. It's a long term idea, but we should be past instant gratification at our point in our TFC careers.

Part of why people sit in safe all the time is bc of the pkers, the other part is there isnt anything to do. For example if I log on and there is no one out of safe, there is no reason for me to leave safe. But, if I had something to do, and people knew i was say in dream realm etc, they might dare exping knowing it takes a long time to make it through that zone etc... but If I have nothing to do but wait for them to leave safe... of course they aren't going to leave safe.

If you were in Dream Realm and someone was out XPing, say, in the Plantation, you'd be there in a heartbeat to take them out. Questing or what-else can wait; they're going to be there when you come back. The person out of safe won't. I don't think that's a good example.

I do agree that people need more to do. I think this fits in with the FLI/Guild discussion and some of the avenues that those ideas open up for us.

When it comes right down to it, I think those 'oldies' of us really need to look at the bigger picture. We've played for a long time, but as Wish said, many of us are past the point of actively bringing in people, simply because the people who would normally be brought in by this are younger. Many of the options open to them these days weren't around when I found TFC - I couldn't afford EQ, and that was about the only online fantasy game out there. Now, there's a multitude! Not to mention the thousand+ MUDs out there. TFC (or her older players, more to speak) need to suck it up and accept that things need to change if we want to survive. Maintaining the status quo or saying 'Things are fine' isn't helping; things AREN'T fine.

Either way, these are all just my opinions, as always. Great to have some good discussions! Gives me something to do when I'm bored and eating lunch.

[Tynian]

I have come to the realization that the problem may not be the mud. The problem is us. By "us" I mean those of us who are between the levels of 40 and 50. Especially the 50's. We get this big, and we expect the game to continue on as it was during the trip to get here, with challenge, and suspense, and high adrenaline as we PK or get PKed.

I agree. You've seen and experienced it all. You know the game mechanics. You know the tactics and strategy. It's all pretty established and perfected now.

I always beat on the same drum, I know, but stats other than +damage has to become much more prominent. Changing that will help to insure that people will have something to do rather that locating and wearing as much damage as they can pack on. Non-PKers may be more apt to wander out of safe, too.

Limited Pk (i.e. limited looting) has been proposed numerous times before, including by me, and it never went anywhere.

I am not opposed to limited looting. Where I get stopped is how to implement it. If you let someone loot 3 items + gold, for instance, what 3 items can one grab? Or is it random? You could end up with 3 magic mushrooms. ;) Unless you know item stats, item selection could be tricky. Then again, maybe it's not a big deal. It would be up to the looter, perhaps, to make sure they have a detect magic up, or something.

[Tynian]

Yes, there are limited immortal spots. So, here is how you solve that problem, and give 50's something to do: make the acquisition of immortality more competitive amongst the level 50's (and 40's) that qualify.

This could be turned into a long term competition, with more difficult and specific goals than currently exist for immorting, ending in perhaps a combat to the death, reverse Highlander style. If you choose not to participate in the immort competition, or you lose, you get sent to pasture. Tough dohicky, go start another character.


Not everyone has the goal of Immortality in mind. I think the immort or die idea, while interesting and somewhat amusing, is also counter-productive. I guess it comes down to whether it's better to have marginally interested, bored 50s hanging around, or better to drive those off that don't have the desire and motivation to begin anew.

At least "bored and here" at leaves gives us the opportunity to re-engage them... if only we came up with something that would fit the bill. ::whistle::

[Tynian]

Mind you I don't think limiting what a person loses will do much as people tend to not want to risk losing anything.


How can you know? There's always the implicit chance that you will lose everything. I know I would assume that if PKed, everything is gone.

Just curious.

[Solaron]

I am not opposed to limited looting. Where I get stopped is how to implement it. If you let someone loot 3 items + gold, for instance, what 3 items can one grab? Or is it random? You could end up with 3 magic mushrooms. ;) Unless you know item stats, item selection could be tricky. Then again, maybe it's not a big deal. It would be up to the looter, perhaps, to make sure they have a detect magic up, or something.

Well, with the new itemprop flag, that would help. And then it would almost be a benefit not to have items marked.... that way when you die, PKers wouldn't know what to take. The potent item that could be 25hp or one of the moderates that COULD be 3dmg 3dmg?

[Tay]

i thought i heard this somewhere, from a following that said they would only loot 3 items off the corpse, but they had each follower take 3 items a piece, or something to that affect...maybe i drempt it? ::huh::

[Tynian]

i thought i heard this somewhere, from a following that said they would only loot 3 items off the corpse, but they had each follower take 3 items a piece, or something to that affect...maybe i drempt it? ::huh::

Wasn't that Thaygar's second coming...?

[Solaron]

i thought i heard this somewhere, from a following that said they would only loot 3 items off the corpse, but they had each follower take 3 items a piece, or something to that affect...maybe i drempt it? ::huh::

This was the Ebon Hand, correct. I had a character in that following; if you yourself died, you could only loot 3 items from the corpse. But another follower could take the corpse and take another 3 items, so on and so on.

It was a nice attempt at a rule, but few followed it in spirit; most just found a way around it, or ignored it completely when Thaygar wasn't on.

[Tynian]

[NOTE: I started a new thread with this post, only to find that we already discussed it previously. So, I merged the 2 responses with the old thread]

Any thoughts about limiting corpse looting so that those that are PKed aren't starting completely from scratch?

Bad idea, or truly inspired and brilliant concept that I shamelessly lifted from others that have suggested it in the past?

[Pol]

Interesting thought, Tyn, but I think it will all depend on both the implementation and what problem you're trying to solve. Is this to prevent lower-levels from being looted by ubers because of bad recalls, etc, or just for PK's? What items are lootable what items are not? How does one determine the loot rules? Does it depend on level, alignment, etc?

To a PK'er, I think this wouldn't be fair - what happens if the item they are after is one that's not lootable? Time, effort and resources they would expend to plan a PK to get it would be wasted. If the corpse isn't selectively lootable, it's quite possible a PK'er would just take whatever they could and then sac the corpse dry - too much trouble to sift through inventory and give stuff back if you're limited from the beginning in what you can take.

We already have reequip, and though not used that often, I think it's a good solution already in place that maybe just needs some tweaks.

I think if you make the reequip sets level dependant (so that at mid-levels, the sets come with some +1's, higher levels +2's) and maybe tweak them to be attuned to the character (so that it's not all +dex/str/dmg but also includes levelling stats) and, of course, make the cost of the sets level dependant too (such that one couldn't reequip at will, then sell items for a profit), it will prevent characters from being unplayable for extended periods of time if they are 100% looted.

Besides, many (most?) PK'ers will give some stuff back or at least sell items back, the pit is usually well stocked, and there are usually people around who are willing to help. Not to mention, reequipping oneself is a basic skill that most players *should* learn as they play.

Overall, it *might* have some application to things like quest-gifts, wedding rings, etc. - things that are granted OOC to the player moreso than to the character. Besides that, I don't think it's a very good idea.

Thanks!

Pol O'Song

[Gyro]

As a player that has experience on a mud that does have no loot items, and as a person that has died many many times in tfc, I must say I am generally against no loot items. (for convience, I use no-loot as the general term for the type of items. Whether they be no-loot or just return to player on death like following wwps is up to the big dwarf)

Having no-loot items takes a large amount of regulation. Besides the obvious "how do you get these", it has to be made sure that players cannot be completely eq'd in no-loot items. Otherwise, you have players that are essentially no-risk pkers, who can die and not lose a thing, much like the naked shaman. But with no-loot, you run the risk of having warrics or thages (like you Pol) with no-loot sets that dont have to care about dying.

It takes a lot of thought to make sure the no-loot items are worthwhile, however they are found, (I'm thinking questing, cash, or some other means), but not so strong that they are the best piece of a set. So a 4dmg 4hr ring would not be a good no-loot, but neither would an ac4 2dex onbody. The balance issue is hard and there are no real rules about it, each item has to be carefully evaluated so that it is clear it is worth whatever effort is taken to gain it, but is not so powerful that it becomes the cornerstone of a person's set.

There is also the possibility of exploiting no-loots in other ways. Not necessarily sure how as examples I have wouldn't apply to TFC, but players that are prone to exploiting loopholes will find a way.

Of course, items like a wedding ring, a very meaningful restring (that is not Similus or a 5dmg 5str onbody), would be nice. This rewards the RP portion of the population. Or no-loot items for sub 20's would also be a nice but not overly exploitable addition, to help youngins level and not have to worry that they died in the ocean. Another idear would be that these items are only no-loot if the player is pacifist or reprisalist, that way the no-loot is protecting those that are not actively engaged in PK and not keeping naked shamans stocked on da or what have you. However, this is also reasonably exploitable as then we get players with lots of no-loot trying to earn justs or something wierd like that. Again, the no-loot idea can be great for smaller players or players that do not really care for the PK scene, so I'm not horribly against it, just from expierence, it can lead to more problems than it solves.

Also, briefly, I am not a fan of limiting pk, I dont pk much and pretty much rank as one of the most worthless of pkers, but I do not think we should make it futile. TFC is a pk mud, and pk is a good part of the atmosphere, so we do not want to make those that do pk to feel sleighted. It should always be materially rewarding to get a pk or loot a corpse, or at least not a total waste of time.

Thanks.